|
1695 1 (Case called.) 2 THE COURT: Good morning. 3 Two announcements. One, Juror 1 had some 4 difficulty getting out of his driveway this morning -- 5 have a seat -- and will be here shortly. He had to take a 6 cab but will get here one way or the other. In fact, he 7 phoned that he will be getting into a cab, so he will be 8 delayed slightly. 9 Secondly, Juror 8 reported in her car this 10 morning she was tapped in the rear by the car apparently 11 driven by defendant Reffsin. It is not a big thing. And 12 related that defendant Reffsin opened his window and said 13 I'm sorry. What else could he do? It had nothing to do 14 with her being on the jury, she said, has a completely 15 open mind and related that to us and I intend to have her 16 stay on the jury. 17 MR. REFFSIN: I apologize, Your Honor. 18 THE COURT: We'll wait for the jury thing. 19 MR. TRABULUS: There is one thing before the jury 20 comes out. In Ms. Gaspar's, in one of the items, a memo 21 by Agent Jordan that is known as 3500-4A, there's a 22 reference to "I prepared this memorandum --" 23 THE COURT: You are speaking very rapidly, 24 Mr. Trabulus. What you say generally makes sense, so that 25 is all right. But you talk very rapidly. You have to OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1696 1 slow down. You might be before j udges who think much 2 faster than I do, see, and they may be able to keep up 3 with you, I can't. 4 MR. TRABULUS: Judge, what I was saying is I 5 received a typewritten memorandum and it says it was 6 prepared from memory and from notes taken during the 7 interview of Ms. Gaspar on that date. I haven't gotten 8 the handwritten notes, I've gotten handwritten notes from 9 earlier interviews. If they are still in existence for 10 this interview I believe I should get them. 11 THE COURT: Yes. Are they still in existence. 12 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, I don't know. My 13 understanding Mr. Trabulus is not entitled to drafts of 14 this memorandum and therefore he wouldn't also be required 15 to be entitled to have the notes which have been reduced 16 to a formal memoranda. 17 THE COURT: I don't know whether that is so or 18 not. Where did you get that authority from? He would be 19 entitled to have original notes, not drafts in that, for 20 example, if there were three drafts of the typewritten 21 memorandum, he would not be entitled to that, but he would 22 be entitled to the original notes. Where do you get the 23 idea he would not? If there are original notes. 24 MR. WHITE: At one time the original notes were 25 there, but I have to see whether or not they exist. OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1697 Gasper-cross/Trabulus 1 THE COURT: If they do tell me. 2 MR. WHITE: All right. 3 THE COURT: Anything else, Mr. Trabulus? 4 MR. TRABULUS: That's it. 5 THE COURT: He should be here very shortly. 6 (Short recess taken.) 7 (Jury enters.) 8 THE COURT: Good morning, members of the jury. 9 Please be seated. 10 We appreciate your continued diligence, even 11 though there are acts of God preventing people from 12 getting here, they get here anyway. That's great. 13 Ms. Gaspar, you are still under oath. Do you 14 understand that? 15 THE WITNESS: Yes. 16 M A R I A G A S P A R , having been previously sworn by 17 the Clerk of the Court, was examined and testified as 18 follows: 19 FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION 20 BY MR. TRABULUS: 21 Q Good morning, Ms. Gaspar. I'm Bruce Gordon's 22 lawyer. 23 When you worked at Who's Who, where physically 24 did you work in the offices? 25 A In the Lake Success facility. OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1698 Gasper-cross/Trabulus 1 Q Beg your pardon? 2 A In Lake Success. 3 Q Is that where you worked? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Did you work at Sterling at all? 6 A No. 7 Q So you basically just worked at the Lake Success 8 facilities; is that correct? 9 A That's correct. 10 Q Can you describe those facilities for us? 11 A The whole facilities? 12 Q Well, why don't we just limit it to the area where 13 you worked. 14 A I had an office with a desk, computer, file cabinets. 15 Q And what other offices where you by? 16 A To my right I remember was a computer person. 17 Q Who was that, Mr. Kohler? 18 A Gary something. 19 Q Gary Kohler? 20 A To my left was the administration office. 21 Q And that included Liz Sautter? 22 A Liz Sautter and a whole bunch of other people. 23 Q Who with respect the other people? 24 A There were so many, I don't know. 25 Jeanine (ph), Wendy, I can't remember. OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1699 Gasper-cross/Trabulus 1 THE COURT: Jeanine, how do you spell that? 2 THE WITNESS: J-e-i-n-e -- the best I know. 3 BY MR. TRABULUS: 4 Q Was that a suite of offices? 5 A One office. 6 Q And they all worked there? 7 A Yes. 8 Q Now, during -- and that's to your left and I think 9 you mentioned Mr. Kohler was to your right; is that 10 correct? 11 A That's correct. 12 Q What was beyond Mr. Kohler to your right? 13 A Behind? 14 Q Beyond. 15 A To his right was, I believe, Cara Green's office. 16 Q And that would be somebody in the sales department; 17 is that correct? 18 A Correct. 19 Q What was beyond the administration office to your 20 left? 21 A There was nothing behind. There was something going 22 that way (indicating) which would have been to the left 23 and there was Mr. Gordon's office. 24 Q To get to Mr. Gordon's office you would have to pass 25 by the administration; is that correct? OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1700 Gasper-cross/Trabulus 1 A Yes. 2 Q Okay. 3 Now, was there also like a cafeteria type 4 facility within the offices, a lunchroom with machines in 5 it? 6 A There was a cafeteria of some kind, yes. 7 Q A lunchroom with machines in it? 8 A Yes. 9 Q And people could go there and eat their lunch? 10 A I believe so. 11 Q Did you sometimes eat your lunch there? 12 A No. 13 Q During the course of a typical day, would you spend 14 the entire day sitting at your desk in your office or 15 would you go out of the office from time to time? 16 A I would eventually get out of my office. 17 Q Who would you normally speak to during the course of 18 a day? 19 A Very open question. Whoever. 20 Q In other words, basically you could talk to anybody 21 as the need arose? 22 A Hello, good morning, good afternoon. 23 Q Not just talking about that. But in terms of things 24 relating to the business, things you had to do, who would 25 you typically speak to? OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1701 Gasper-cross/Trabulus 1 A Business directly, would be with Mr. Gordon or 2 anybody in the division office or Gary, if there was any 3 computer problem. 4 Q Would you sometimes speak to the people in the Public 5 Affairs or Public Relations office such as Susan Konopka 6 or any of those people? 7 A If there were any issues related to payments, yes, 8 they would come to my office or I would have to go to 9 their office and discuss whatever the subjects were. 10 Q Is it fair to say although it may -- withdrawn. 11 Is it fair to say from time to time you might 12 speak to anybody who worked in the company except perhaps, 13 leaving aside for now the salespeople, as the need arose? 14 A Regarding financial subjects, yes. 15 Q Did you sometimes speak to people in the sales 16 department also? 17 A Very seldom. 18 Q That would only be if something came up with them 19 relating to financial matters; is that correct? 20 A I really didn't have anything to do in that respect. 21 Q Were some of them paid at least partially on a 22 commission basis? 23 A Yes. 24 Q Did you ever get into any discussions with them as to 25 whether or not their commissions had been computed OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1702 Gasper-cross/Trabulus 1 properly or anything like that? 2 A Payroll was not handled personally by me. 3 Q But you were familiar with it? 4 A I was familiar with it, yes. 5 Q It was handled by ADP? 6 A Yes. The preparation was done mainly by Elizabeth 7 Sautter. She would ask me to review it and it would be 8 transmitted to ADP. 9 Q During the course of a day -- well, withdrawn. 10 You testified that although you were hired as a 11 comptroller, you worked really more as a bookkeeper; is 12 that correct? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Can you tell the members of the jury the difference 15 between a comptroller, as you see it, and a bookkeeper? 16 A A bookkeeper is more doing clerical work and being 17 guided by a supervisor. A comptroller or assistant 18 comptroller, they would be taking charge of some of the 19 financial requests and obligations that were necessary. 20 Q Would it be fair to say that a comptroller -- 21 withdrawn. 22 So in your view, what you were doing is primarily 23 a bookkeeper; is that correct? 24 A Yes, because I could not make any decisions. 25 Q And a comptroller would be making decisions; is that OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1703 Gasper-cross/Trabulus 1 correct? 2 A Yes. 3 Q Did you have the title chief financial officer? 4 A That's how I was hired, yes. 5 Q You were hired through an ad in the newspaper; is 6 that right? 7 A Yes. 8 Q You didn't go through this recommended by anyone? 9 A No, it was an ad in the paper. 10 Q During the course of your work, did you do some work 11 with regard to payroll? 12 A I used to fill in for Elizabeth whenever she was tied 13 up. 14 Q Elizabeth being Elizabeth Sautter? 15 A That's correct. 16 Q When you filled in for her, what did you do? 17 A I just gave the information to ADP and transmitted 18 it. 19 Q And you became familiar with the various peoples' 20 salaries who worked there? 21 A Tell you the truth, I was concerned more about doing 22 the input, not concerned with what anyone was particularly 23 earning. 24 Q So are you telling me you don't know what people were 25 earning? OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1704 Gasper-cross/Trabulus 1 A Uhm, very few people. I can't tell you what they 2 were earning. 3 Q What were you earning? 4 A $1,200. 5 Q $1,200 a week? 6 A That's correct. 7 Q Is that what you started at? 8 A That's correct. 9 Q So what does that come out to per year? $60,000? 10 A 60,000. 11 Q Now, do you know what Liz Sautter earned? 12 A The same amount of money. 13 Q Same as you? 14 A Umm-hmm. 15 Q Isn't it the fact that she earned more and you 16 resented it? 17 A Me, no. 18 Q Wasn't she in a supervisory position vis-a-vis you in 19 different respects? 20 A Totally different, supposedly finance. 21 Q You said "supposedly," I just want to know. Are you 22 telling me you weren't doing the financial work? 23 A Not to the full capacity that a comptroller would do. 24 Q What you are saying is you weren't functioning as a 25 comptroller? OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1705 Gasper-cross/Trabulus 1 A That's correct. 2 Q And is it your understanding -- who had been doing 3 the work you were doing before you got hired by Who's Who 4 Worldwide, do you know? 5 A My understanding was that Elizabeth was just writing 6 checks and Mr. Reffsin's office used to collect the check 7 stubs and any information and process it in his office. 8 Q Elizabeth Sautter had been working for Mr. Gordon for 9 ten years, that is your understanding? 10 A I don't know the amount of time. For a long time. 11 Q You understood she was working there for a long 12 period of time? 13 A Correct. 14 Q It's your testimony you were hired for a clerical 15 position out of a newspaper and you were paid the same 16 salary as Elizabeth Sautter; is that correct? 17 A Let me rephrase that. When I was hired -- 18 Q Just tell me yes or no, is that your testimony? 19 You were hired out of a newspaper for what 20 amounted to a clerical position and you were paid the same 21 amount as Elizabeth Sautter, that is your testimony? 22 A No. 23 Q So you were paid less? 24 A Let me explain, please. 25 Q Were you paid less? OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1706 Gasper-cross/Trabulus 1 A No. 2 Q Were you hired for a clerical position? 3 A No. 4 Q Were you performing a clerical position? 5 A Yes, I was. 6 Q Did anybody tell you after you were hired they 7 weren't satisfied with you and didn't think you were up to 8 the position you were hired for? 9 A No, nobody did. 10 Q Did you complain you were only doing a clerical 11 position? 12 A I mentioned a few times, yes. 13 Q You didn't like that fact, did you? 14 A No, I just felt that I could offer the company a lot 15 more than I was offering. 16 Q Now, Ms. Gaspar, you grew up in Portugal; is that 17 correct? 18 A That's correct. 19 Q And you were educated in Portugal, were you not? 20 A Yes. 21 Q And in Portugal you've told people that you were an 22 accountant; is that correct? 23 A That's correct. 24 Q And in fact, have you told people in Portugal that 25 you were trained and became an accountant just like a OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1707 Gasper-cross/Trabulus 1 Certified Public Accountant here, I don't know what they 2 call it there, right? 3 A The terminology, if you want me to say it in 4 Portuguese, I think I will. 5 MR. TRABULUS: I think the court reporter would 6 have a little difficulty unless he understands 7 Portuguese. 8 BY MR. TRABULUS: 9 Q You were basically working as a bookkeeper, that's 10 your testimony? 11 A Yes. 12 Q And you were certainly not happy with the fact you 13 were working only as a bookkeeper? 14 A I resigned myself to the fact that that's what the 15 owner wanted, that's what the president of the company 16 wanted. 17 Q Did the president of the company ever tell you why he 18 would hire a brand new clerical employee and pay that 19 person the same salary as he was paying a long time 20 right-hand assistant? 21 Yes or no? 22 A I recall the interview that I had, the very first 23 interview -- 24 THE COURT: Wait a minute now. On 25 cross-examination you will be asked questions that call OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1708 Gasper-cross/Trabulus 1 for a yes or no answer. If you don't know or don't 2 remember, of course say so, otherwise, please try to 3 answer yes or no. If you can't answer a question yes or 4 no, say that, "I can't answer that question yes or no." 5 That shifts the question back to Mr. Trabulus who will 6 decide what he will say, but don't make explanations. 7 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honor. 8 THE COURT: He's entitled to zero in on what he 9 wants to hear on the issue or the subject matter he's 10 interested in. 11 THE WITNESS: Okay. 12 THE COURT: Now. Mr. White will have another 13 opportunity to question you. If he thinks that you 14 haven't been permitted to answer fully, he can ask you at 15 that point. 16 Do you understand our procedure? 17 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honor. 18 THE COURT: Okay. 19 THE WITNESS: I cannot answer that question with 20 a yes or a no. 21 BY MR. TRABULUS: 22 Q Okay. Now, let's go to some of the things you did in 23 your clerical position. 24 Did you become familiar with the making of 25 refunds by Who's Who Worldwide? Did you do any OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1709 Gasper-cross/Trabulus 1 bookkeeping for refunds? 2 A If there were refunds issued by check, yes. 3 Q And were you familiar with refunds being issued by 4 check? 5 A Yes. 6 Q Did you come to learn Who's Who Worldwide's policy of 7 making re funds if people wanted a refund, changed their 8 mind or was dissatisfied or whatever? 9 A I was given information from the administration to 10 refund. 11 Q And would you have occasion to discuss with the 12 administration as to what the occasion for the refund 13 would be? 14 A Normally an explanation was written on the paperwork 15 as was given to me. 16 Q Would you have occasion to read the explanation? 17 A Most of the time. 18 Q What were some of the reasons that were given? 19 A I can't recall. 20 Q Okay. 21 Is it fair to say that there was a policy that 22 you were aware of making refunds to members or people who 23 had purchased who for some reason or another decided to 24 change their mind; is that correct? 25 A That is correct. OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1710 Gasper-cross/Trabulus 1 Q And that as far as you know was implemented; is that 2 correct? 3 A That's correct. 4 Q Let me ask you this. Did you work on the preparation 5 of the corporate income tax returns for Who's Who? 6 A Tax returns? 7 Q Yes. 8 A No, I had nothing to do with tax returns. 9 Q You had nothing to do with any tax returns; isn't 10 that correct? 11 A Only if there was any backup paperwork I was asked, 12 but nothing to do with tax returns. 13 Q So you never saw any tax return of Who's Who 14 Worldwide; is that correct? 15 A I don't recall if I did, but I'm not a tax expert to 16 begin with. 17 Q Well, you don't need an expert to know whether you 18 see a tax return, do you? 19 A I don't recall. 20 Q Did you ever see any personal tax return of 21 Mr. Gordon's? 22 A I don't recall. 23 Q Now, I think you testified yesterday that Mr. Gordon 24 was receiving less money than you were; is that right? 25 A That's correct. OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1711 Gasper-cross/Trabulus 1 Q And that he was receiving less money than Liz was; is 2 that right? 3 A That's my understanding. 4 Q That was your understanding back then, is that what 5 you are saying? 6 A Yes. 7 Q And you base that understanding from the information 8 that you say you saw from ADP and so forth, right? 9 A Right. 10 Q Now, ADP prepared W-2s, did it not? 11 A Yes. 12 Q And you start working in December of 1993; is that 13 correct? 14 A That's correct. 15 MR. TRABULUS: Bear with me a moment, Your Honor. 16 THE COURT: Yes. 17 BY MR. TRABULUS: 18 Q Now, you worked at Who's Who through October 1994? 19 A Yes. 20 Q So it's a period of about ten months or so? 21 A Yes. 22 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, by stipulation I would 23 offer Government's Exhibit 411 which is a tax return, U.S. 24 individual tax return of Bruce Gordon for the calendar 25 year 1993. OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1712 Gasper-cross/Trabulus 1 Also, Your Honor, while a sticker is being put on 2 it as 412, which is also a 1040 form for Bruce Gordon, but 3 for the calendar year 1994. 4 THE COURT: Any objection? 5 MR. WHITE: No, Your Honor. 6 THE COURT: Government's Exhibits 411 and 412 in 7 evidence. 8 (Government's Exhibits 411 and 412 received in 9 evidence.) 10 MR. TRABULUS: Judge, we're just checking to make 11 sure the numbering is right here. 12 Okay. 13 BY MR. TRABULUS: 14 Q Ms. Gaspar, I will show you these two documents. 15 I'll put 411 on top and I'll talk about them just 16 briefly. 17 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, I'm sorry to interrupt. 18 May I just take a quick look at 412? 19 THE COURT: Surely. 20 MR. WHITE: Thank you. I'm sorry. 21 BY MR. TRABULUS: 22 Q Now, Ms. Gaspar, I think at one time you were 23 interviewed by a government agent and I think you told him 24 Mr. Gordon was only making 8 or $900 a week? 25 A Somewhere around $1,000. OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1713 Gasper-cross/Trabulus 1 Q Around $1,000 per week, which would come out to 2 52,000 a year. Do you think it might be less, somewhere 3 between 8 and 900? 4 A Somewhere around there. 5 Q Take a look at 411, that's Mr. Gordon's income tax 6 return for 1993. 7 Can you tell us what it reports his wages, 8 salaries and tips as being? 9 A Yes, I can. $91,208. 10 Q And in fact, yesterday you testified to a letter that 11 you yourself wrote. 12 A That's correct. 13 Q That also listed that amount; is that correct? 14 A That's correct. 15 Q And is it your testimony that Mr. Gordon was 16 overstating his income to the IRS? 17 A No, and I have -- 18 MR. TRABULUS: Thank you. 19 Q Now, 412, that is the 1994 income tax return. 20 What does that show his wages, salaries and tips 21 as being? 22 A $139,447. 23 Q Thank you. 24 Now, you weren't making more than $91,000 at any 25 time, were you, at the company? OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1714 Gasper-cross/Trabulus 1 A No, I was not. 2 Q And Liz Sautter was not? 3 A Not to the best of my knowledge. 4 Q Was anyone making more than $91,000 besides 5 Mr. Gordon? 6 A I wouldn't be able to answer that. Maybe it is 7 possible some salesman or saleswoman who had a really good 8 year and had a lot of good commissions may have earned 9 that. I don't know. 10 Q Anyone make more $139,000 a year besides Mr. Gordon? 11 A This is for the full year of '94? 12 Q You might not know the full year of '94, so let me 13 change that question in fairness to you. 14 During the time period while you were there in 15 1994, was anybody being paid at a rate which would have 16 computed out to over $139,000 a year if you stretched it 17 out over the entire year? 18 A Not to my knowledge. 19 Q Besides Mr. Gordon? 20 A Right. 21 Q Now, were you involved in the payment of payroll 22 taxes by any of the corporations? 23 A ADP automatically used to make the payments. 24 Q You indicated that you became familiar with the 25 payroll that ADP prepared; is that correct? OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1715 Gasper-cross/Trabulus 1 A Yes. 2 Q And there would be a certain bottom line. Was it 3 every two months or so? 4 A Weekly basis. 5 THE COURT: You may proceed. 6 MR. TRABULUS: Thank you, Your Honor. 7 BY MR. TRABULUS: 8 Q So it was on a weekly basis. 9 Do you remember what the payroll taxes were on a 10 weekly basis while you were there? 11 A I couldn't tell you. 12 Q Do you know if it was over $20,000? 13 A I don't know. 14 Q Over $30,000? 15 A I have no recollection. 16 Q Do you remember what the weekly payroll was? 17 A I cannot tell you. 18 Q How many employees were working at Who's Who while 19 you were there? 20 A Between 80 to 100 I would say. 21 Q Okay. And did you also work with -- withdrawn. 22 Now, you've indicated that you were at the 23 Hummingbird Road condominium; is that correct? 24 A Yes. 25 Q And when you were there were you shown an office OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1716 Gasper-cross/Trabulus 1 there? 2 A Yes, Mr. Gordon had an office there. 3 Q He had an office there; is that right? 4 A Yes. 5 Q And did you do any payroll -- withdrawn. 6 Did you do any books the for PVI company? Did 7 you do any work there? 8 A There was some entries being done for PVI. 9 Q And among those entries, did you record any rent 10 checks from Mr. Gordon to PVI? Do you recall that? 11 A I recall there being some monthly payments from 12 Mr. Gordon to PVI, yes. 13 Q And I asked you if there were any rent checks. Do 14 you have any reason to believe they weren't rent? 15 A Something reminds me, kind of brings me back that the 16 payments covered utility bills. 17 Q $2,500 or $2,000? 18 A Something like that. 19 Q There was a $2,000 a month utility there? 20 A Something in the back of my mind kind of tells me 21 those payments were to cover utility bills. 22 Q Was there any kind of factory being operated there? 23 A No. 24 Q Now, I would like you to tell me about the office 25 that you saw. Could you describe just the office? OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1717 Gasper-cross/Trabulus 1 A I remember seeing a computer and that's about it. 2 Q Well, did you see a desk, chairs? 3 A I don't really recall. I remember seeing a computer 4 and I remember him saying this is my office, but -- 5 Q That's all you remember? 6 A That's all I remember. 7 Q All right. 8 How far a drive was that from the Lake Success 9 offices? 10 A Fifteen minutes, 20 minutes. I don't recall. 11 Q Well, I don't know that everybody knows in this jury 12 where these places are, not everybody lives in Nassau 13 County. 14 Where is Lake Success? Can you describe it? 15 A Close to New Hyde Park. 16 Q Northern half of Nassau County, kind of towards 17 Queens, right? 18 A Yes. 19 Q All right. 20 And where was the Hummingbird Road property? 21 That was in a place called Searingtown, right? 22 A Somewhere around there, yes. 23 Q And that's also in the northerly part of Nassau 24 County? 25 A Yes. I'm not really very familiar with the area. OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1718 Gasper-cross/Trabulus 1 Q Maybe about the same northness as Lake Success, maybe 2 a little more north, right? 3 A A little more north. 4 Q More north? 5 A Yes. 6 Q How many miles away; two, three? 7 A I can't tell you. 8 Q And how many times were you at the Hummingbird Road 9 property? 10 A Once. 11 Q Were you driven there? 12 A Yes. 13 Q And did you drive directly from Lake Success? 14 A No. 15 Q Did you drive directly back to Lake Success from 16 there? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Did you make any stops back from Lake Success? 19 A Not that I recall. 20 Q And would you say 15 minutes? 21 A Ten minutes. 22 Q Maybe even ten minutes? 23 A I don't recall, I really don't. 24 Q Now, let's talk about have you ever been to the 25 Lexington Avenue facilities of Sterling? OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1719 Gasper-cross/Trabulus 1 A Yes. 2 Q And that's near 59th Street? 3 A Yes, I was. 4 Q Where was the penthouse, the penthouse in the city, 5 somewhere around? 6 A 3rd Avenue. 7 Q And 60th Street? 8 A Somewhere around there. 9 Q About two minutes away by foot? 10 A By? 11 Q If you walked from Sterling to the penthouse it was a 12 few minutes, right? 13 A I remember walking once, it was more than two 14 minutes. 15 Q Well, five minutes? 16 A About ten minutes. 17 Q Ten minutes. 18 59th Street and Lexington Avenue was Sterling? 19 A Yes. 20 Q And the penthouse was on 60th Street? 21 A Somewhere around there. 22 Q Do you know what avenue? 23 A I don't know Manhattan that well. 24 Q Well, do you know what avenue it was? Was it on the 25 east side? OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1720 Gasper-cross/Trabulus 1 A You are asking the wrong person. I don't know the 2 east from the west side of Manhattan. 3 MR. TRABULUS: Sorry. I misspoke, 54th and 2nd. 4 A 2nd Avenue. 5 Q I was a little too close. That would be maybe seven 6 or eight minutes, right? 7 A Yes. 8 Q I think you said that you went to a cocktail party 9 there; is that right? 10 A Yes. 11 Q And that was on a Saturday night? 12 A Yes, sir. 13 Q And that was at Mr. Gordon's invitation? 14 A Yes, sir. 15 Q In fact, it was more than even his invitation, it was 16 at his instruction, he told people they had to be there? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Was there some kind of a friction among some of the 19 staff members before that, were you aware that? 20 A Not that I'm aware of. 21 Q Okay. 22 But he basically told people they were to go 23 there for this cocktail party that Saturday night; is that 24 correct? 25 A That's correct. OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1721 Gasper-cross/Trabulus 1 Q And people weren't paid extra for that Saturday 2 night? 3 A Absolutely not. 4 Q But the people who were told came; is that right? 5 A Yes. 6 Q And that included Ms. Konopka; is that right? 7 A Yes. 8 Q You were there with your husband? 9 A Yes. 10 Q And your son was there? 11 A Yes. 12 Q Your son was there too? 13 A Yes. 14 Q And other people? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Basically when Mr. Gordon told them to come for this 17 meeting, basically he set it up for whatever purposes they 18 wanted it and they came? 19 A To the best of my knowledge. 20 Q You mentioned something about the Grossmans 21 yesterday. Do you recall that? 22 A Yes. 23 Q And you said that you were told that Mr. Grossman, 24 Richard Grossman, his name was on the credit card merchant 25 account? OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1722 Gasper-cross/Trabulus 1 A Yes. 2 Q That's the account -- not that the company's handles 3 it, but the bank? 4 A The merchant. 5 Q So people can charge their memberships at Who's Who? 6 A Yes. 7 Q And Mr. Grossman's name was on that? 8 A Yes. 9 Q And you understood because of the credit perhaps that 10 Mr. Grossman had, it had to be Mr. Grossman or whose ever 11 name was that on there? 12 A That's what I was told. 13 Q You were also told at some point of time the 14 Grossmans were made the owners of Who's Who; is that 15 right? 16 A That was my understanding. 17 Q Beg your pardon? 18 A That's my understanding. 19 Q You were told that by Ms. Sautter? 20 A Yes. 21 Q And there was some kind of problem? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Basically you were told that also while you were 24 talking about the merchant credit account? 25 A Yes. OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1723 Gasper-cross/Trabulus 1 Q Did it appear to you that was being done also in 2 connection with having the merchant account that that 3 might be the reason they were made orders? 4 A Yes. 5 Q That was the impression you got? 6 A Umm-hmm. 7 Q You have to say yes or no because the reporter can't 8 take down an umm-hmm. 9 A Yes. 10 MR. TRABULUS: Excuse me. 11 Q Now, you testified yesterday to a conversation that 12 you said you had with Mr. Reffsin about Mr. Gordon's 13 loans; is that correct? 14 A Umm-hmm. 15 Q Once again, you have to say yes or no. 16 A Yes, sir. 17 Q Sure. Because an umm-hmm or an ah-huh come out the 18 same way on the transcript and I bet what I just said will 19 come out the same way. 20 A I apologize. 21 Q You said you had a conversation with him concerning 22 the way these payments to Mr. Gordon were to be reflected; 23 is that right? 24 Yes? 25 A Yes, sir. OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1724 Gasper-cross/Trabulus 1 Q And you said that these things appeared to be 2 personal; is that right? 3 A Yes, sir. 4 Q Now, certainly some things were personal, is that 5 correct, like clothing and so forth? 6 A Yes, sir. 7 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, my stipulation, the 8 parties are offering into evidence 842-A through Y -- is 9 it A through Z. I'm sorry, 842-A through Z and 843-A 10 through X. And these are photographs that were taken -- 11 we hav e dates for some of them, January 23, 1996 for the 12 smaller ones, the Polaroids. 13 The others we'll stipulate were taken during the 14 same month, January of 1996, of the 250 East 45th Street 15 penthouse, apartment 4, and they were taken apparently by 16 an attorney for the bankruptcy trustee. 17 THE COURT: Any objection? 18 MR. WHITE: No, Your Honor. 19 THE COURT: Government's Exhibit 842-A through 20 842-Z, and 843-A through 843-X, in evidence. 21 (Government's Exhibits 842-A through 842-Z 22 received in evidence.) 23 (Government's Exhibits 843-A through 843-X 24 received in evidence.) 25 MR. TRABULUS: Thank you, Your Honor. OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1725 Gasper-cross/Trabulus 1 BY MR. TRABULUS: 2 Q Now, Ms. Gaspar, were you aware that some of the 3 things that were charged on Mr. Gordon on his Amex account 4 were utilized in the penthouse apartment? Were you aware? 5 A Some of them were. 6 Q And were you aware that some of the sculpture, the 7 one shown in 842-Z, was that charged on the Amex account? 8 A I don't recall -- I don't recall, sir. 9 Q The paintings? There was a piano there, was there 10 not? Do you know if that was charged on the Amex account? 11 A I couldn't tell you that. I don't recall. 12 Q Do you recall some of the items there were charged on 13 the Amex account? 14 A I remember one particular item that I was told to be 15 super careful with a delivery of it being charged. 16 Q On the Amex account? 17 A Yes. 18 Q What item was that? 19 A It was something that was purchased in Europe, some 20 art. There was approximately $30,000. That I recall very 21 clearly. 22 Q Okay. 23 That was used to decorate the apartment, the 24 penthouse; is that correct? 25 A That is correct. OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1726 Gasper-cross/Trabulus 1 Q And when you went to the penthouse, you saw it there, 2 right? 3 A Well, I was responsible to make sure that the item 4 was in proper condition, so I do recall that very clearly. 5 Q And that was something which was booked as a loan to 6 Mr. Gordon; is that correct? 7 A That's correct. 8 Q Are you aware that that was sold off by the 9 bankruptcy trustee and that Mr. Gordon didn't get the 10 proceeds but it went to the bankruptcy estate? 11 A I'm not aware of that status. 12 Q Was it what you did was to book everything that was 13 charged on Mr. Gordon's card on the Amex to the loan 14 account regardless of whether or not it was a business 15 property or personal? 16 A At that time I was told by Mr. Gordon there was a 17 piece of art he liked and he bought it for himself. 18 Q Okay. 19 It's understood that there could be some that he 20 bought for himself. What I'm asking you for is this -- 21 MR. TRABULUS: I move to strike the answer. 22 THE COURT: Do you want a decision on the 23 motion? 24 MR. TRABULUS: I'm sorry, Your Honor. 25 THE COURT: Or did you just say it because you OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1727 Gasper-cross/Trabulus 1 are going ahead to the next question rapidly, quickly, 2 fast. Is that it? Or do you want a decision on the 3 motion to strike? 4 MR. TRABULUS: I respectfully request a decision 5 to strike. 6 THE COURT: That motion is granted. The answer 7 is stricken as not being responsive. 8 Listen to the question and answer what you're 9 asked. Do you understand that? 10 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honor. 11 BY MR. TRABULUS: 12 Q Ms. Gaspar, the question is, did you book every 13 purchase made by Mr. Gordon on the American Express 14 account or I think there were some made by Ms. Sautter 15 that she indicated were for Mr. Gordon? 16 A Yes. 17 Q All of those that were indicated as Gordon, did you 18 book them as loans to Mr. Gordon? 19 A If I was instructed to, yes. 20 Q Were any that you booked not as loans to Mr. Gordon 21 but as corporate expenses? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Did you maintain a log as to which were expensed as 24 charges, which ones were booked as loans? 25 A The credit card bills would indicate the amount that OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1728 Gasper-cross/Trabulus 1 was charged to loans and the amount that would be charged 2 to entertainment, if there was a case. 3 Q If there was business entertainment that would be 4 charged as a business expense; is that correct? 5 A That's correct. 6 Q And do you know whether or not Mr. Gordon -- 7 withdrawn. 8 As far as you understood, that was legitimate to 9 book that as a business expense, was it not? 10 A Those were the instructions that I had. 11 Q And you had no reasons to believe those instructions 12 were incorrect? 13 A Not coming from my boss. 14 Q You had no reasons to believe those were not indeed 15 business entertainment expenses, do you? 16 A I was told that they were. 17 Q I asked you if you have any reason to believe there 18 were not? 19 A Yes. 20 Q That was easy, wasn't it? 21 MR. WHITE: Objection. 22 THE COURT: Sustained. 23 Yes. Let's move along, Mr. Trabulus. 24 BY MR. TRABULUS: 25 Q Now, it's your testimony that Mr. -- Withdrawn. OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1729 Gasper-cross/Trabulus 1 When the business -- withdrawn. 2 When the corporation booked something as a loan 3 to Mr. Gordon, is it correct that it did not book that as 4 an expense to itself? 5 A That is correct. 6 Q So because it didn't book it as an expense to itself, 7 it would not take a tax deduction from its own income for 8 it; is that correct? 9 A That's correct. 10 Q Are you aware as to the amount of corporate income 11 taxes paid by Who's Who? 12 A Not at that point, no. 13 Q Are you aware as to what its annual income was around 14 that time? 15 A Not at that time, no, I wasn't. 16 Q Are you aware as to what the corporate income tax 17 rate was at that time? 18 A No, I was not. 19 Q The percentage. 20 A Not for the corporation, no. 21 Q Now, it's your testimony that Mr. Reffsin told you 22 that it was being booked that way so that Mr. Gordon 23 wouldn't have to pay taxes on it, is that what you are 24 told? Is that what you say? 25 A If I remember correct -- OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1730 Gasper-cross/Trabulus 1 Q Yes or no, ma'am? 2 A I cannot answer the question with a yes or no. 3 Q Is it your testimony that Mr. Reffsin told you that 4 Mr. Gordon had a personal tax liability? 5 A Yes. 6 Q You weren't a particular friend of Mr. Reffsin? 7 A Not an enemy either. 8 Q I understand that. But it wasn't somebody whom you 9 had a close relationship with, correct? 10 A A business relationship. 11 Q He had been working there -- withdrawn. 12 You say that he told you this after you were 13 there only a very short time, right? 14 A Couple months, probably. 15 Q The first time that you say that you were -- the 16 question came up as to how to record these loans; is that 17 right? 18 A To my recollection, yes. 19 Q And when was the first time that you had to record 20 these loans after you started working there? 21 A Sometime in the beginning of '94. 22 Q You started in December of '93? 23 A Umm-hmm. 24 Q Yes, sir? 25 A Yes, sir. OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1731 Gasper-cross/Trabulus 1 Q And the American Express card came in on a monthly 2 basis; is that correct? 3 A Yes. 4 Q So it would have been certainly within the first two 5 months you had to do this? 6 A I would say you are correct. 7 Q Now, you were working as a bookkeeper or comptroller 8 for Who's Who; is that correct? 9 A Correct. 10 Q You did not work on Mr. Gordon's personal affairs; is 11 that correct? 12 A No, sir. 13 Q It is not correct or you did not work on them? 14 A I did not. 15 Q You did not work on them. 16 Now, Mr. Reffsin, do you understand that he 17 worked on Mr. Gordon's personal affairs? 18 A That's my understanding. 19 Q And is it your understanding -- withdrawn. 20 You are an accountant, right? 21 A Yes. 22 Q And isn't it true that an accountant is not supposed 23 to reveal confidences about his clients to other people? 24 A It's my policy. 25 Q So you were a new employee at Who's Who Worldwide; is OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1732 Gasper-cross/Trabulus 1 that correct? 2 A Correct. 3 Q And you've been hired out of a newspaper; is that 4 correct? 5 A That is correct. 6 Q No prior relationship with anybody there? 7 A Absolutely. 8 Q And you are saying that Mr. Reffsin came and told you 9 something about Mr. Gordon's personal tax situation, 10 that's your testimony? 11 Yes or no, ma'am? 12 A Yes. 13 Q Now, when you say he told you this, he didn't tell 14 you, did he, that he was asking you to do anything wrong, 15 did he? 16 A No. 17 Q He didn't say that he regarded this as any kind of 18 improper thing, did he? 19 A No, he did not. 20 Q Now, when was the first time you ever spoke to 21 anybody for the government, one of the agents here or any 22 agent? When was the first time? 23 A Sometime in the summer of '94. 24 Q The summer of '94. That's while you were still 25 working there? OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1733 Gasper- cross/Trabulus 1 A I'm sorry? 2 Q Summer of '95? 3 A I'm sorry, '95. 4 Q At that point in time you were working at the 5 Huntington Townhouse; is that correct? 6 A That's correct. 7 Q Do you still work at the Huntington Townhouse? 8 A No longer. 9 Q Where did you work before you went to Who's Who? 10 What was the name of your employer? 11 A Precision Gear. 12 Q What was the name of the person you worked for there? 13 A Mr. William Girimonte and Matthew Forelli. 14 Q Now, when you -- excuse me. 15 Would it refresh you recollection if that first 16 time was June 23, 1995? 17 A It's possible. 18 Q And one of the agents that you spoke to was Agent 19 Jordan who I'm pointing to now, do you recall that? 20 A Yes, I recall. 21 Q Did they make an appointment to come see you at the 22 Huntington Townhouse or they just showed up? 23 A Showed up. 24 Q They told you they wanted to talk to you about your 25 work at Who's Who Worldwide; is that correct? OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1734 Gasper-cross/Trabulus 1 A Something to that effect, yes. 2 Q And you talked to them about it; is that correct? 3 A Whatever questions they asked me, I answered. 4 Q Now, do you recall whether the subject of the logs 5 came up in that conversation? 6 Yes or no? 7 A I don't recall. 8 Q And as far as you recall, you may not have said 9 anything at all about the logs at that point; is that 10 correct? 11 A If they didn't ask, I wouldn't have thought about it. 12 Q And do you recall that there was an occasion when the 13 subject of the logs first came up, whether at that meeting 14 or some later other meeting? 15 A At some other meeting, yes. 16 Q You also met with them on January 14, 1996, is that 17 correct, or at least with some agents? Do you remember 18 that? 19 A Approximately six months after that, I don't remember 20 the date. 21 Q And that was not at the Huntington Townhouse but that 22 was at the Postal Inspectors' Offices in Hicksville; is 23 that correct? 24 A Hicksville, that's correct. 25 Q On John Street? OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1735 Gasper-cross/Trabulus 1 A I don't know the street. 2 Q How did you come to go there? Did they call you to 3 come down there? Did you get a subpoena? 4 A They told me to meet them in there. 5 Q Okay. 6 A If I recall, I couldn't see them at the Townhouse 7 because it was like close to my house, that's why we 8 agreed to meet. 9 Q And you went there, right? 10 A That's correct. 11 Q And you spoke to them. 12 A Yes. 13 Q Now, at that meeting did they show you the logs? 14 A Truthfully, I don't recall if they showed it to me. 15 I know the conversation came about. 16 Q It came up a conversation about the logs; is that 17 correct? 18 A Yes. 19 Q And in the first of the conversation they just asked 20 you if you had prepared the logs or if you knew anything 21 about that? 22 A Something to that effect, correct. 23 Q And when they told you that, they didn't tell you 24 that there was nothing wrong with the logs before they 25 asked you that question, did they? OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1736 Gasper-cross/Trabulus 1 A No, sir. 2 Q And then you told them that you had prepared the 3 logs? 4 A That's correct. 5 Q And then after -- at that point in time did you tell 6 them that there anything wrong with the logs when you said 7 "I prepared them" when they first asked you if you 8 prepared them? Did you say yes? 9 A I did say I prepared them, yes. 10 Q But when they said that you didn't tell them there 11 was anything wrong with that, did you, when they first 12 asked you at the very beginning? 13 A I just said I didn't like the way it was done but I 14 did it. 15 Q Did they not tell you that they had spoken to other 16 people and that the people whose names were there said 17 they hadn't gone to any meetings, is that right? They 18 told you that at some point? 19 A I don't recall at that time. 20 Q Well, did they tell that you they knew those logs had 21 phony entries on them? 22 A They probably did know. I was not told, to my 23 recollection. 24 Q You don't recall. 25 So you are saying that you voluntarily told them OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1737 Gasper-cross/Trabulus 1 that you did phony logs without them telling you that they 2 were phony? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Did you understand that that could have been a crime 5 to do that? 6 A I had no clue. 7 Q You had no clue. 8 You thought it was perfectly okay. 9 A No, I knew it was not correct, but I didn't know the 10 extent of the damage. 11 Q Did they tell you that it was a crime? 12 A I don't recall. The word "crime" I don't recall 13 being used. 14 Q Did they tell you you could be in trouble? 15 A I don't recall at that time either. Maybe at the 16 future meeting, maybe they said something. 17 Q At the future meeting they said you could be in 18 trouble? 19 A Umm-hmm. 20 Q So it's your testimony -- so when you first told them 21 you did the logs -- 22 A Yes. 23 Q And you told them you didn't like doing it? 24 A That's correct. 25 Q And when they first asked you did you do the logs, OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1738 Gasper-cross/Trabulus 1 did you tell them "I phonied them up right away"? 2 A I told them I made them up according to the 3 instructions. 4 Q Did you tell them that you prepared the logs? 5 A Yes. 6 Q When they first asked you about the logs, they didn't 7 tell you that there was nothing wrong with them, right? 8 A To my recollection, not at that time. 9 Q So you wouldn't have any reason to come out and tell 10 them that the logs were phony, would you? 11 A No. 12 Q So are you saying that the first thing you did when 13 they asked you about the logs was tell them that they were 1 4 phony? 15 A No, I remembered telling them that I had prepared the 16 log according to the instructions, but they were not 17 realistic logs. 18 Q Basically you understood these were federal law 19 enforcement agents? 20 A Yes. 21 Q And they told you at the previous meeting they were 22 conducting an investigation, right? 23 A Something to that effect. 24 Q Did you understand these people were conducting a 25 criminal investigation to see whether or not there were OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1739 Gasper-cross/Trabulus 1 crimes committed? 2 A I knew they were conducting something. The extent of 3 it I really did not know. 4 Q I'm not asking you the extent of it. 5 Did you know whether or not they were looking 6 into possible crimes? Did they tell you that? 7 A They didn't say it. 8 Q They didn't say that. 9 A That I remember, no. 10 Q Did they -- did Mr. Jordan tell you that he was with 11 the Criminal Intelligence Division of the Internal Revenue 12 Service? 13 A I remember them giving them their business cards. 14 Q And did it say that on it? 15 A Criminal investigators, something like that. 16 Q Criminal investigators, something like that? 17 A Something. 18 Q Okay. 19 You knew from that that there was certainly a 20 criminal investigation underway; is that correct? 21 A Something to that effect. 22 Q Did that worry or concern you at that time when you 23 first got that card? 24 A Not really. 25 Q It didn't? OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1740 Gasper-cross/Trabulus 1 A Not really. 2 Q You got that card at the Huntington Townhouse? 3 A Yes. 4 Q That was in the summer of 1995? 5 A Yes. 6 Q That was in the meeting where you didn't talk about 7 the logs? 8 A Yes. 9 Q And it didn't worry you, right? 10 A Didn't even think about it. 11 Q You knew at the time that you had prepared phony 12 logs, you were being spoken to by criminal investigators, 13 and you didn't worry about it, right? 14 A If the subject didn't come up, I wouldn't have any 15 reason to think about it. 16 Q You hadn't been found out yet, right? 17 A About what? 18 Q Doing the phony logs, right, as far as you knew. 19 A I knew I had done something, but -- 20 Q But you weren't worried because they apparently 21 didn't know about it, right? 22 A It didn't come up in the conversation here, sir. 23 Q Now, a time comes that they come back and they do 24 talk to you about the logs, right? 25 A Umm-hmm. OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1741 Gasper-cross/Trabulus 1 Q Yes? 2 A Yes. 3 Q And -- 4 THE COURT: You have to answer. Excuse me, you 5 have to answer "yes" rather than "umm-hmm." Umm-hmm, of 6 course, could be ah-huh. 7 If it's uh-uh, it means no, right? 8 I break this up every once in a while, that's 9 all. 10 THE WITNESS: I appreciate that. 11 THE COURT: Mr. Trabulus had it right. He did it 12 better than I did. 13 MR. TRABULUS: I've learned from a master, Your 14 Honor. 15 THE COURT: All right. 16 BY MR. TRABULUS: 17 Q Ms. Gaspar, so now we come to the second meeting and 18 now they seem to know something about the logs, right? 19 A To my recollection, that's correct. 20 Q And you tell them, yeah, I did it, but they told me 21 to do it, right? 22 A That's correct. 23 Q Now, at a certain point in time you are asked -- you 24 are offered immunity; is that correct? 25 A Oh, much later. OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1742 Gasper-cross/Trabulus 1 Q Right. 2 And at that point you had spoken to an attorney, 3 had you not? 4 A I recalled them coming in the office -- 5 Q I don't mean the U.S. Attorney. Did you ever speak 6 to an attorney yourself? 7 A Only when they brought up the fact that they 8 recommended I would hire an attorney. 9 Q And that attorney negotiated the immunity for you, 10 obtained that, right? 11 A Right there, in the presence of the agents, I called 12 an attorney that I used to deal with. 13 Q And that attorney got the immunity for you; is that 14 right? 15 A And they spoke. I don't know what they spoke about. 16 Q At a certain point in time you got immunity, right? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Did the agents tell you they really weren't 19 interested in coming after you, they were interested in 20 your bosses or the people above you? Did they ever say 21 that to you? 22 A There was not mention to me. 23 Q Never said that. 24 You testified earlier on that when Mr. White was 25 questioning you you understood that that immunity meant OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1743 Gasper-cross/Trabulus 1 that you couldn't be prosecuted for what you said you did, 2 but if you lied you could be prosecuted for lying, right? 3 A That's correct. 4 Q Did the agents also tell you that it was a crime to 5 lie to the agents when they interviewed you? 6 A I never lied to the agents. 7 Q I didn't ask you that, did I? 8 Did the agents tell you that it was a lie -- that 9 it would be a crime if you would lie to them, right? Did 10 they tell you that? 11 A Well, lying is a crime to begin with. 12 Q Well, you understood that if you had lied to the 13 agents when they were interviewing you, that would have 14 been a crime. They told you that afterwards, right? 15 A Probably. I don't recall. 16 Q So you knew that if when you testified you changed 17 your story, you could be subject to having lied to the 18 agents earlier on, right? This was before you went into 19 the grand jury, right? 20 A That is not correct. 21 Q Oh, you thought that you could change your story and 22 you wouldn't be prosecuted. They would say go in there 23 and say we don't know what truth is, you go in there and 24 tell it and no repercussions will come? 25 A I told the truth before I even knew about immunity. OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1744 Gasper-cross/Trabulus 1 MR. TRABULUS: Move to strike. 2 THE COURT: Strike it out as not being 3 responsive. The jury is instructed to disregard it. 4 BY MR. TRABULUS: 5 Q I believe you said that you were in court the day 6 that it was decided that the logs were going to be 7 prepared, is that right, in the bankruptcy court? 8 A That's correct. 9 Q Were you actually in the courtroom when the lawyers 10 were talking about the logs? Do you remember? 11 A Can you refresh my memory, please? 12 Q Yeah, I'll try to do that. But before that I will 13 show you a transcript. 14 Do you remember whether or not you were actually 15 in the courtroom while the lawyers were talking or you 16 learned about it after the lawyers came out of the 17 courtroom? 18 A I remember being in a courtroom -- 19 Q All right. 20 I'll show you the transcript. 21 MR. WHITE: Can the witness finish the answer, 22 Your Honor? 23 THE COURT: Yes. She didn't finish her answer. 24 MR. TRABULUS: I thought you had, I'm sorry, 25 continue. OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1745 Gasper-cross/Trabulus 1 A I can remember being in court with a whole bunch of 2 other members of Who's Who. Exactly when, is that when 3 you are referring to? 4 Q I'll show you a transcript. I'll let you look at it 5 and you tell me whether you remember if those words were 6 being said. Is that all right? 7 A Okay. 8 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, I'm going to show the 9 witness 631 which is not in evidence, it's for 10 Identification but it is being used for the purpose of 11 seeing whether her recollection may be refreshed. I'm 12 using a copy of it (handing.) 13 A (Perusing.) This is not -- 14 THE COURT: Anything you say -- 15 A That does not portend -- I don't see my name in 16 there, so it is hard to recall if anybody would have said 17 it at that time. 18 Q Fair enough. 19 So you are not sure whether you were actually 20 there while you were present? 21 A I -- 22 Q I misspoke. 23 You were not sure that you were present when 24 those words were spoken? 25 A I can't recall. OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1746 Gasper-cross/Trabulus 1 Q There was talk in the courthouse that day whether or 2 not it was -- whether you were there in the court as it 3 was happening or right afterwards and some logs would have 4 to be prepared, right? 5 A Are you referring to the bankruptcy court? 6 Q Yes. 7 A The 341 hearings? 8 Q You testified yesterday there was a day in the summer 9 of 1994 when you learned that some -- you went to the 10 bankruptcy court and you learned that there was some logs 11 having been prepared. Do you remember that? 12 A The 341 hearings in the bankruptcy court. 13 Q Right. 14 A That I remember, yes. 15 Q But there were a lot of different days upon which the 16 341 hearings got adjourned and they were adjourned from 17 week to week to months, right? 18 A Yes. 19 Q So I'm talking about that 341 hearing occurred when 20 they were talking about the logs, right, that particular 21 time? 22 A Yes, I remember that. 23 Q And you remember the logs at that meeting Who's Who 24 agreed that it was going to keep logs, maintain the logs; 25 is that right? OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1747 Gasper-cross/Trabulus 1 A To the best of my recollection, the court 2 representatives, whatever their names are titled, 3 requested that the log would be represented for those two 4 facilities. 5 Q Mrs. Gaspar, the question was was there an agreement 6 as to whether they were going to present a log? 7 A Produce logs. 8 Q Did anyone say that the logs were already in 9 existence? 10 THE COURT: Well, by produce, you mean create 11 logs? 12 THE WITNESS: Create logs. 13 BY MR. TRABULUS: 14 Q Nobody said that the logs already existed for 15 previous months, did they? 16 A Something tells me there were supposed to be logs 17 maintained. 18 Q In the future; is that correct? 19 A Up to that point already. 20 Q Well, did somebody say that -- do you recall somebody 21 saying that there already were logs that had been in 22 existence for months or years or something like that? 23 A Are we keeping logs of the facilities and who attends 24 it and something to the effect, yes, we are keeping logs 25 or something to that effect. OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1748 Gasper-cross/Trabulus 1 Q Were going to or already had? 2 A They were already prepared. 3 Q In existence? 4 A Again, this is the best of my recollection. 5 Q Did anybody ask you -- this was a meeting in August 6 of 1994, correct? 7 A In the end of August sometime. 8 Q Well, was it not August 9, 1994? 9 A I cannot tell you the date. 10 Q Did you understand that from that date forward, Who's 11 Who was to maintain logs? 12 A I heard that was to be done, yes. 13 Q Somebody asked you to prepare logs for months before, 14 did they? 15 A Not from before August, no. 16 Q Okay. 17 So the logs that you were asked to maintain were 18 from looking forward from that date; is that correct? 19 MR. WHITE: Asked by whom? 20 THE WITNESS: By the -- 21 MR. TRABULUS: Well, let's talk about it. 22 A By the bankruptcy -- people that were there. 23 Q Court. 24 A Court people. 25 Q That's the day when you say that you had this OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1749 Gasper-cross/Trabulus 1 conversation in the car; is that right? 2 A When we got in the car -- 3 Q Yes or no, that's the same day? 4 A Yes. 5 Q That's all we're asking. 6 And you say that in the car you were told that 7 you had to be careful to make sure that the same people 8 weren't in two places -- I'm going to withdraw the 9 question. 10 You say that you were told that you had to be 11 careful that the logs didn't cross each other up, right, 12 that's your testimony? 13 A I was told not to use the same people and the same 14 location, the same day. 15 Q No, you were -- you say you were told not to use the 16 same people at the two different locations the same day; 17 is that correct? 18 A Yes. 19 Q That's what you say you were told? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Did you need to be told that? I mean, you are 22 intelligent. 23 A Yes. 24 Q If you were going to fake a log, you wouldn't be 25 needed to be told that? OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1750 Gasper-cross/Trabulus 1 A I would say so. 2 Q And the reason why you say you were told that is that 3 so that it wouldn't -- it couldn't be found out that the 4 logs were phonied, right, if you saw the same two people 5 at two different locations it couldn't be phony? 6 A That's right. 7 Q You were familiar with instances where Mr. Gordon 8 would travel from Lake Success and go into the city the 9 same day, right? Sometimes he would be in both offices on 10 the same day? 11 A So I heard, yes. 12 Q And in fact, people could have business meetings, the 13 same people could have business meetings in two different 14 locations the same day, right? 15 A It's a possibility. 16 Q Now, you say that at some point in time you showed 17 Mr. Gordon the logs, is that right, before they were sent 18 over to Mr. Ackerman's office, right? 19 A If I recall -- 20 Q Yes or no? 21 A I did not show it to him. 22 Q You didn't show it to Mr. Gordon. Never? 23 A I can't answer that with a yes or a no. 24 Q You say "I did not show it to Mr. Gordon." Are you 25 saying you did or you didn't? OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1751 Gasper-cross/Trabulus 1 A He saw them. 2 Q You say that he saw them. 3 You didn't show it to him but he saw them? 4 A Yes. 5 Q That's your testimony? 6 A That's correct. 7 Q And he told you there were things that had to be 8 added to them, that's your testimony yesterday? 9 A Between him and Mr. Reffsin, yes. 10 Q And didn't you say that you showed them to Mr. Gordon 11 and he made some suggestions, right, I'm sorry, that he 12 saw them, that's your testimony? 13 A That's correct. 14 Q And that he made some suggestions; is that correct? 15 A That's correct. 16 Q And you are saying that for him to make a suggestion 17 according to you he had to have actually looked at them? 18 A That's correct. 19 Q And you saw him reading them, is that what your 20 testimony is? 21 A That's correct. 22 Q And he read over those portions which had him in New 23 York on the days that you say that we've seen evidence 24 that he was in California, right? 25 A That's correct. OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1752 Gasper-cross/Trabulus 1 Q And he said he didn't tell you to change that? 2 A That's correct. 3 Q This was the same man supposedly present could not 4 show the two logs, show the same people at the same place 5 on the same day, correct? 6 A That's correct. 7 Q -- Different. 8 Now, is it your testimony that you -- withdrawn. 9 Did you tell the people whose names were in the 10 logs that these phony logs were being maintained for phony 11 meetings and I was putting you down for a meeting on that 12 particular day? 13 Did you tell that to those people, yes or no? 14 A Yes. 15 Q You did. 16 And are you saying that Mr. Gordon and 17 Mr. Reffsin told you to tell these people? 18 A No. 19 Q You are saying -- now you understood, did you not, 20 according to your testimony from what you said that you 21 were doing something wrong, you felt bad about, right? 22 A Yes. 23 Q And your bosses or your boss, I wouldn't say that, I 24 didn't mean to miss people. Your boss didn't tell you to 25 tell other people in the company about this; is that OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1753 Gasper-cross/Trabulus 1 right? That's your testimony? 2 A I can't answer that with a yes or no. 3 Q I just asked you, I think, whether they asked you to 4 tell other people in the company, and you said no; is that 5 correct? 6 A Only the people that knew about the logs. 7 Q Oh, they asked you to tell the other people who knew 8 about the logs? 9 A They did not. 10 Q They did not. 11 But you decided to broadcast among the other 12 people that their names were on some phony logs, that you 13 had prepared phony logs with their names on it, right? 14 You decided that on your own, right? 15 A It came in a conversation. 16 Q It came in a conversation. 17 You told each of them, did you? 18 A No, I did not. 19 Q I see. 20 Did you tell Agent Jordan that one of the times 21 he met with you that you had told each of them that? 22 A No. 23 Q Did you tell the other people whose names were in the 24 logs that they were in the logs? 25 A Not everybody in the log. OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1754 Gasper-cross/Trabulus 1 Q I see. 2 Now, when Mr. -- When you say this conversation 3 occurred in the car, that was right after the bankruptcy 4 court, right? 5 A Yes. 6 Q And there still would be time to hold real meetings 7 if you wanted to, right? 8 A Explain, please. 9 Q You had been to a meeting at the penthouse that 10 Mr. Gordon called and a lot of people really didn't want 11 to go, right? 12 A Yes. 13 Q And he got them to go there, right? 14 A Yes. 15 Q And the Sterling, the penthouse was only about seven 16 minutes away from Sterling, right? I think we testified 17 to that, right? 18 A Ten minutes. 19 Q Seven or ten minutes away. 20 And the one at Searingtown, that was somewhere 21 between ten and 20 minutes away by car, right? 22 A Somewhere around there. 23 Q And the people that came to Lake Success, they all 24 drove, came by car? 25 A Yes. OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1755 Gasper-cross/Trabulus 1 Q And did you suggest to them that, gee, maybe we ought 2 to instead of faking these logs, maybe we ought to just 3 have meetings there, there is no problem doing that? You 4 didn't suggest that to them, right? 5 Yes or no, madam? 6 A No. 7 Q And you are saying that that never occurred to them. 8 They just decided they would commit a fraud? 9 MR. WHITE: Objection. 10 THE COURT: Sustained as to form. 11 MR. TRABULUS: Withdrawn, Your Honor. 12 BY MR. TRABULUS: 13 Q Now, you got a call from Mr. Reffsin, did you not, on 14 the day when he said we need those logs? 15 A That's correct. 16 Q And up to that point in time, according to your 17 testimony yesterday, you hadn't done a thing to prepare 18 logs, right? 19 A No, I did not. 20 Q You hadn't done what you've been told to do, right? 21 A That's correct. 22 Q And if your boss found out about that, that you 23 hadn't been maintaining the logs you were supposed to, you 24 could have been in trouble, right? 25 A I'm pretty sure -- OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1756 Gasper-cross/Trabulus 1 Q Yes or no? 2 A No. 3 Q No, he wouldn't have cared, right? 4 A I think he was aware of it. 5 Q Oh, he was aware that you weren't doing what you were 6 supposed to be doing? 7 A That the logs weren't being done. 8 Q And he was aware of that. 9 Of course at that point in time it's your 10 testimony -- you could not have gone back and 11 reconstructed who really had been at different places at 12 particular times, right? 13 A Not going back a month and-a-half. 14 Q Not at that point in time. 15 So you had to cover yourself, didn't you, from 16 what you hadn't done, right? 17 A I cannot answer that, sir. I cannot answer that. 18 MR. TRABULUS: No further questions. 19 THE COURT: Anything else. 20 MR. JENKS: I'm going to question. 21 Your Honor, Counsel is suggesting that perhaps it 22 is time for a break. 23 THE COURT: Not yet. I appreciate the 24 suggestion. 25 (Continued.) OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1757 Gasper-cross/Jenks 1 CROSS-EXAMINATION 2 BY MR. JENKS: 3 Q Now, Ms. Gaspar, you are getting a benefit by 4 testifying here today, aren't you? 5 A Yes, I believe so. 6 Q Well, the benefit you would be getting is not being 7 named as a codefendant in an obstruction of justice count 8 along with Mr. Gordon and with Mr. Reffsin; am I correct? 9 A That's too much terminology for me to understand it, 10 sir. 11 Q Well, the benefit that you are getting is that the 12 people at this table have chosen to give you immunity; am 13 I correct? 14 A That I know is true. 15 Q So you are getting a benefit of not being charged 16 with a crime for your preparation of these false usage 17 logs; am I right? 18 A If you say so, yes. 19 Q Well, I don't say so. It's what you say. I only ask 20 the questions. 21 Are you getting a benefit by your testimony here 22 today? 23 A By saying the truth, yes. 24 Q By saying the truth. 25 These people here (indicating) have given you OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1758 Gasper-cross/Jenks 1 immunity for you to testify; am I right? 2 A Yes. 3 Q You understand what immunity is, correct? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Tell the jury what your understanding is of the 6 immunity that you got from Mr. White. 7 A By telling him, by telling everybody the truth, I 8 cannot be punished or suffer any consequences by producing 9 those logs that I produced under the instructions of two 10 different people. 11 Q Well, you produced the logs yourself, correct? 12 A That is correct. 13 Q Mr. Gordon and Mr. Reffsin didn't pull a gun out on 14 you to write down the false information on the logs, did 15 they? 16 A No, they didn't. 17 Q You did it on your own, correct? 18 A Would I have a reason to do it? 19 Q Did you do it on your own, ma'am? 20 Yes or no? 21 A Under the instructions I did. 22 Q In your handwriting you created these logs, right? 23 A That is correct. 24 Q Mr. Gordon's handwriting is not on the logs, is it? 25 A No, it's not. OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1759 Gasper-cross/Jenks 1 Q Mr. Reffsin's handwriting is not on these logs, is 2 it? 3 A No, it's not. 4 Q Let me make sure I understand. Let's backtrack a 5 minute. 6 You came to Who's Who Worldwide in the fall of 7 1993? 8 A In the winter of '93. 9 Q Winter of '93. 10 And you stayed for approximately ten months until 11 October of '94, right? 12 A Correct. 13 Q And the logs were created sometime in August of '94? 14 A I don't remember the date. 15 Q But you created them, correct? 16 A I did create them. 17 Q Okay. 18 You say you faxed them to Mr. Reffsin for his 19 review; am I right? 20 A That is correct. 21 Q And that he faxed them back to you, correct? 22 A That he called me. 23 Q He called you. 24 How many times did you fax the logs to 25 Mr. Reffsin? OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1760 Gasper-cross/Jenks 1 A To my recollection, once -- twice. The draft and the 2 final. 3 Q Did he fax anything back to you with any corrections? 4 A I can't recall. 5 Q Can you point to any documents in this voluminous 6 pile of discovery with any notes where either Gordon or 7 Reffsin were instructing you to prepare these false logs? 8 MR. WHITE: Objection. 9 THE COURT: Overruled. 10 A No, but if there is an itemized phone bill you will 11 be able to see that occurred. 12 Q If there was an itemized phone bill. 13 What will the bill show us, that there was a 14 telephone call between -- 15 A There was a fax. 16 Q -- There was a fax between Reffsin's office and you 17 or Who's Who Worldwide, correct? 18 A Correct. 19 Q Would it show us that that fax involved the 20 production of the logs in this case? 21 A No, but I would say you can transmit and see the time 22 and the transmission of those sheets to be equivalent to 23 the time of the transmission that that fax would show. 24 Q Well, there's no date on those logs, is there? There 25 is no date they were prepared, correct? OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1761 Gasper-cross/Jenks 1 A They were prepared the date they were faxed to that 2 attorney in Rifkin Radler's office. 3 Q Would it not be a fact that the fact that there was a 4 fax from Who's Who Worldwide to Reffsin would be worthless 5 in terms of showing that Reffsin knew about the production 6 or the creation of these logs, correct? 7 MR. WHITE: Objection. Exactly to characterize 8 what would be evidence or not. 9 THE COURT: Sustained as to form. 10 BY MR. JENKS: 11 Q Let me ask you this. There is not a scrap of paper 12 -- withdrawn. 13 Can you show me anything that Mr. Gordon wrote on 14 paper anywhere in this courtroom instructing you to 15 prepare false usage logs? Can you do that? 16 A Sir, I did not characterize -- 17 Q Yes or no? 18 A No. 19 Q Can you show me a piece of paper where Gordon 20 instructs you to prepare these false logs? 21 A No. 22 Q Can you show me a piece of paper, even the sides of a 23 matchbook, where Reffsin instructs you to prepare these 24 false usage logs? 25 A No. OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1762 Gasper-cross/Jenks 1 Q Anyone else in the company? 2 A No. 3 MR. JENKS: May I have the immunity order, 4 Mr. White, the original. 3500-4C. 5 Just one moment, Your Honor. 6 THE COURT: Sure. 7 BY MR. JENKS: 8 Q This is Government's Exhibit 805 for Identification 9 (handing.) 10 You can take it out of the plastic sleeve, 11 Ms. Gaspar. 12 I'm showing you what has previously been marked 13 as Government's Exhibit 805 for Identification. Do you 14 recognize that, Ms. Gaspar? 15 A (Perusing.) I don't remember seeing this. 16 Q Well, would it be fair to say that that's the 17 immunity order that you received from the United States 18 Government in this case? 19 Read it over and take your time. 20 A (Perusing.) It looks likes that's what it is. 21 Q You've seen that document before, have you not? 22 A I truthfully don't recall. 23 Q Does it have your name on the document? 24 A Yes, my name is here. 25 Q And it says order; am I correct? OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1763 Gasper-cross/Jenks 1 A Yes. 2 Q And in that document it refers to you, Maria Gaspar; 3 am I right? 4 A That's correct. 5 Q You discussed your immunity order with your attorney, 6 right? 7 A Something was said -- 8 Q You discussed it. 9 Well, your attorney told you that you had 10 immunity, correct? 11 A Yes, something to that effect. 12 Q All right. 13 MR. JENKS: I'm going to offer that document in 14 evidence, Your Honor. 15 THE COURT: Any objection? 16 MR. WHITE: No, Your Honor. 17 THE COURT: Government's Exhibit 805 in evidence. 18 (Government's Exhibit 805 received in evidence.) 19 BY MR. JENKS: 20 Q I want you to take a look at that document, 21 Ms. Gaspar, and I want you to read it through with me, 22 okay. 23 It says in that document that "on motion of the 24 United States Attorney for the Eastern District of New 25 York, on February 13, 1997." Correct? OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1764 Gasper-cross/Jenks 1 A Umm-hmm. 2 Q That's the heading of the document; am I right? 3 A Yes. 4 Q The first paragraph. 5 A Yes. 6 Q "February 13, 1997. Maria Gaspar has been subpoenaed 7 to testify before a grand jury." 8 Do you see that? 9 A Yes, I do. 10 Q And "that it is likely that she will refuse to 11 testify based upon her privilege against 12 self-incrimination." Is that correct? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Prior to your refusing to testify in the grand jury, 15 you had conversations with your attorney; am I correct? 16 A Once, I believe. 17 Q And your attorney was Mr. Nicolisi? 18 A Yes. 19 Q And he's a criminal defense lawyer? 20 A He's a lawyer, I don't know. 21 THE COURT: How do you spell Mr. Nicolisi? 22 THE WITNESS: N-i-c-o-l-i-s-i. 23 BY MR. JENKS: 24 Q You had conversations with Mr. Nicolisi, correct? 25 A I had once. OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1765 Gasper-cross/Jenks 1 Q And you had conversations with the United States 2 Government, correct? 3 A Correct. 4 Q You had conversations, I think you told us, in the 5 summer of 1995; is that right? 6 A Yes. 7 Q The first meeting with Agent Jordan at the Huntington 8 Townhouse, correct? 9 A Correct. 10 Q And then you had a second meeting with the United 11 States Government sometime in 1996, right? 12 A That's correct. 13 Q And in 19 -- when did you have the second meeting in 14 1996? 15 A In the beginning of the year. 16 Q January or February of 1996? 17 A Somewhere around there. 18 Q And Inspector Biegelman was present; am I correct? 19 Do you remember Inspector Biegelman? 20 A I remember the name but I don't remember the first 21 name. 22 Q Would it be fair to say that he was present at the 23 second meeting? 24 A It's a possibility. 25 Q And Mr. White was present at that meeting, the OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1766 Gasper-cross/Jenks 1 prosecutor in this case? 2 A Yes, he was. 3 Q And you testified that it was at that meeting that 4 the United States Government told you that you should 5 contact an attorney? 6 A No, it was not. 7 Q But you contacted an attorney at that meeting; am I 8 correct? 9 A No, I did not. 10 Q Did you not testify just moments ago when 11 Mr. Trabulus was questioning you that you had telephoned 12 Mr. Nicolisi from that meeting? 13 A I called Mr. Nicolisi from the Huntington Townhouse 14 and that meeting took place in the Hicksville office, so 15 obviously, definitely it was not at that meeting, sir. 16 Q You testified you spoke with Mr. Nicolisi from the 17 first meeting at the Huntington Townhouse, is that your 18 testimony? 19 A No. No. No. Maybe the fourth meeting I had with 20 the agents. 21 Q Wait a second. Time out. 22 You told me, you told this jury that you had two 23 meetings with the United States government, correct? 24 A No, I had four meetings. 25 Q How many meetings? OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1767 Gasper-cross/Jenks 1 A I had four meetings if I recollect. 2 Q Let's go through the four meetings. 3 The first meeting was at the Huntington 4 Townhouse; is that correct? 5 A That's correct. 6 Q And that was with two IRS agents; am I correct? 7 A Something, yes. 8 Q Did anyone suggest to you at that meeting that you 9 might be involved in criminal activity? 10 A No. 11 Q All right. 12 You had a second meeting, correct? 13 A That's correct. 14 Q When was the second meeting? 15 A In the Hicksville Post Office. 16 Q All right. 17 And that was sometime in January -- 18 A January of -- 19 Q Of 1990 -- 20 A 1996. 21 Q At that second meeting Mr. White was present and 22 Inspector Biegelman was present, correct? 23 A Yes. 24 Q And you know that Inspector Biegelman is in charge of 25 the mail fraud investigation in this case. Did you know OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1768 Gasper-cross/Jenks 1 that? 2 A I knew he was involved in the post office or 3 something, but I didn't know exactly the title that he 4 has. 5 Q Who else was present besides Mr. White and Inspector 6 Biegelman at the second meeting? 7 A Maybe the lady behind you -- maybe. I'm not sure if 8 that's the case. 9 Q Ms. Scott. 10 A I don't know her name. 11 Q You don't know Ms. Scott? 12 A Ceci, the lady behind you. 13 Q Ms. Scott? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Now, there came a time -- withdrawn. 16 At that second meeting did Mr. White suggest to 17 you that maybe you were involved in some criminal activity 18 with preparation of these false logs? 19 A Nothing was said. 20 Q You told him about you creating these false logs; am 21 I right? 22 A It was simply conversations that he had. The 23 questions and answers. 24 MR. JENKS: You have to answer the question, 25 okay. I ask the question, listen to the question, you OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1769 Gasper-cross/Jenks 1 provide the answer. Okay? 2 I move to strike the last answer, Your Honor, as 3 nonresponsive. 4 THE COURT: Motion granted. Strike it out. 5 BY MR. JENKS: 6 Q Did you tell Mr. White and Inspector Biegelman at 7 that second meeting that you were involved in the 8 preparation of false usage logs to the penthouse and to 9 the condominium? 10 A I believe I told them that I had made the log, yes. 11 Q Did they suggest to you that perhaps you should 12 consult a lawyer because you were involved in criminal 13 wrongdoing? 14 A No, sir. 15 Q All right. 16 Did there come a time you had another meeting 17 with the government? 18 A Yes, there was another meeting. I would say roughly 19 another six months later also at the Huntington Townhouse 20 and at that point that's when they suggested that I should 21 contact an attorney. 22 Q Six months later there was a meeting at the 23 Huntington Townhouse, correct, according to you? 24 A Correct. 25 Q So that would be sometime in the middle of 1996? OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1770 Gasper-cross/Jenks 1 A July or somewhere around there. 2 Q Who suggested that you should contact an attorney? 3 A Either all of them or one of them, I cannot tell you. 4 Q Well, let's find out who was there at the third 5 meeting. 6 A Mr. White, Mr. Jordan and I believe Mr. Pagano. 7 MR. JENKS: Your Honor, I don't have in my 3500 8 materials, notes, if any, pertaining to that meeting. 9 MR. TRABULUS: I have it. It may not have been 10 given to Mr. Jenks. 11 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, everything was given to 12 everybody. 13 THE COURT: I'm sure it was. Mr. Jenks didn't 14 indicate that he didn't get the notes, correct, Mr. 15 Jenks? 16 MR. WHITE: He sure did, Your Honor. 17 MR. JENKS: I'm asking if there was any 18 handwritten notes of the meeting and whether they were 19 provided. 20 MR. TRABULUS: I'm sorry. 21 MR. JENKS: I said handwritten notes. 22 THE COURT: Are there any handwritten notes of 23 that meeting, Mr. White? 24 MR. WHITE: Your Honor that's the issue we raised 25 this morning. We haven't been able to determine yet OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1771 Gasper-cross/Jenks 1 whether or not there were. 2 THE COURT: All right. Now it's time for a 3 recess, Mr. Jenks. Is that all right with you? 4 MR. JENKS: Yes, Your Honor. 5 THE COURT: Okay. Members of the jury, we'll 6 take a ten minute recess. 7 Please don't discuss the case. Please keep an 8 open mind. Please recess yourselves. 9 You may step down, Ms. Gaspar, if you would like. 10 (Recess taken.) 11 (Jury enters.) 12 THE COURT: Please be seated, members of the 13 jury. 14 You may proceed, Mr. Jenks. 15 MR. JENKS: Thank you, Your Honor. 16 BY MR. JENKS: 17 Q Ms. Gaspar, when we left off we were talking about 18 the third meeting you had with the government. 19 A Yes. 20 Q And that meeting was in July of 1996; is that 21 correct? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Who was present at that meeting from the government? 24 A Mr. White, Mr. Gordon and I believe Mr. Pagano. 25 Q And there were three members from the government OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1772 Gasper-cross/Jenks 1 present at that meeting, correct? 2 A That I recall, yes. 3 Q And did you have an attorney yet at that point? 4 A No, I did not. 5 Q So you met with the government three times to discuss 6 your involvement in this case and the government had let 7 you come in to talk to them on three separate occasions 8 without letting you have an attorney; is that correct? 9 A That's correct. 10 Q At the meeting in July of 1996, the government 11 suggested that you get an attorney? 12 A Yes. 13 Q Mr. White suggested that, didn't he? 14 A One of the members, maybe Mr. White. 15 Q Mr. White is the lead prosecutor in this case, isn't 16 he? 17 A Maybe it was him. 18 Q You were dealing with him all along, Mr. White? 19 A Yes. 20 Q And by the way, since you left Who's Who Worldwide in 21 the fall of 1994, October of 1994, have you had any 22 further contact with Mr. Gordon or Mr. Reffsin? 23 A No. 24 Q None at all, correct? 25 A No. OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1773 Gasper-cross/Jenks 1 Q All right. 2 At the third meeting it comes up that you should 3 get an attorney; am I right? 4 A Correct. 5 Q And you believed that Mr. White suggests that to you? 6 A At that point I said "what's the reason?" 7 MR. JENKS: Ma'am, you have to answer my 8 questions. Once again this is the way it works. I ask 9 the question, you listen to the question and you provide 10 the answer. 11 Your Honor, I would ask that portion be stricken, 12 her last response, the limited response. 13 THE COURT: May I hear the question and answer, 14 please. 15 (Record read.) 16 THE COURT: That motion is granted. The answer 17 is stricken. 18 BY MR. JENKS: 19 Q Mr. White suggested that you get a criminal attorney, 20 correct? 21 A Correct. 22 Q Mr. White suggested that you get a criminal attorney 23 because you might have criminal problems concerning your 24 preparation of those false usage logs; am I right? 25 Yes or no? OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1774 Gasper-cross/Jenks 1 A I cannot answer that question with a yes or a no. 2 Q Well, Mr. White told you that you could be prosecuted 3 for what you had done concerning those logs? Did he tell 4 you that? 5 A I don't recall that being said. 6 Q Well, you went out and you got a criminal attorney 7 after that meeting; am I right? 8 A Right in their presence. 9 Q You picked up the telephone in their presence and you 10 called a lawyer, correct? 11 A Correct. 12 Q And you called the lawyer because you were afraid at 13 that point; am I right? 14 A Because I was advised to get an attorney. 15 Q Well, were you afraid of the government at that point 16 for prosecuting you? 17 A No. 18 Q Did they say that they might consider prosecuting you 19 for what you had done? 20 A No. 21 Can I answer that in a different manner? 22 Q Sure, go ahead. 23 A As a matter of fact I contacted the attorney and I 24 said to him exactly what I was -- exactly who was in my 25 presence, and I said would you kindly talk to the OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1775 Gasper-cross/Jenks 1 gentleman and see what this is all about because I have no 2 clue. 3 Q Oh. You had no clue while you were sitting there 4 even though you had prepared false logs, correct? That's 5 your testimony, you had no clue? 6 A That I had prepared the logs, bogus logs, yes. 7 Q You had no clue even though you had testified 8 previously in a bankruptcy proceeding; am I correct? 9 A Umm-hmm. Yes. 10 Q When you testified in the bankruptcy proceeding, it 11 would be fair to say that you didn't tell the truth 12 either, right? 13 A I did tell the truth. 14 Q In the bankruptcy proceeding your testimony is that 15 you told the truth? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Did the government ever tell you that it did not 18 believe what you said in the bankruptcy proceeding? 19 MR. WHITE: What bankruptcy proceedings are we 20 talking about? 21 MR. JENKS: The Who's Who Worldwide. 22 MR. WHITE: What are you asking the witness 23 testified? 24 MR. JENKS: Your Honor, I don't want to have any 25 colloquy with Mr. White on the record. OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1776 Gasper-cross/Jenks 1 THE COURT: I don't blame you. If he has an 2 objection let him say it. Let him not get into these 3 discussions. 4 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, I have an objection 5 then. I would like to clarify what he's asking the 6 witness about. 7 THE COURT: May I hear the last question. 8 (Record read.) 9 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, it's the last series of 10 questions. 11 MR. JENKS: I'll withdraw the questions, Your 12 Honor, and let me start again. 13 THE COURT: Okay. 14 BY MR. JENKS: 15 Q You testified that you had no clue as to what you 16 were having to get an attorney for? 17 A I was advised to get an attorney. 18 Q Because they told you you were in trouble; am I 19 right? 20 A At this point it was suggested to contact an 21 attorney. 22 Q Was it suggested by them that you may be in trouble? 23 A Possibly. 24 Q So that's why you called the attorney, correct? 25 A That's correct. OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1777 Gasper-cross/Jenks 1 Q So you had a clue that you were in trouble because 2 you prepared false logs, right? 3 A Yes. 4 Q So you called the attorney and -- withdrawn. 5 After you called the attorney, did you have 6 another meeting with the government? 7 A I believe I did with Mr. Nicolisi present. 8 Q Now, your attorney comes in for the fourth meeting 9 with the government? 10 A Yes. 11 Q You were present at that meeting as well? 12 A Yes. 13 Q Mr. White was at that meeting, correct? 14 A Yes. 15 Q And Mr. White, would it be fair to say, tells your 16 attorney unless you come on board with the government and 17 agree to testify against Gordon and Reffsin, you are 18 getting prosecuted with obstruction of justice for the 19 creation of those logs; is that right? 20 A I cannot answer that with a yes or no. 21 Q Well, then tell me what your understanding was at the 22 last meeting with your attorney? 23 A My understanding was that if I would tell the Court 24 what I've been telling them which was the truth, I would 25 not be prosecuted for those logs. OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1778 Gasper-cross/Jenks 1 Q Your understanding was that you could be prosecuted 2 for those logs, correct? 3 A There was a possibility. 4 Q And that you could be facing a jail sentence under 5 the United States Sentencing Code, correct? 6 A That's what I understood at that time. 7 Q On that day, right? 8 A Umm-hmm. 9 Q Mr. White explained to you that if you played ball 10 with the government and agreed to testify against Gordon 11 and Reffsin, you won't have any problem, right? 12 A I object to that, play ball. I don't play ball, I 13 simply tell the truth. 14 Q All right. 15 Mr. White suggested to you -- well, you simply 16 tell the truth. You didn't tell the truth when you 17 created the false usage logs, did you? 18 A I was told by -- 19 Q Did you tell the truth -- 20 MR. WHITE: I object. She didn't finish the 21 answer. 22 THE WITNESS: I did a piece of paper -- 23 THE COURT: Stop. The answer calls for a yes or 24 no. Did you tell the truth? Doesn't it? 25 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, the witness can finish OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1779 Gasper-cross/Jenks 1 the answer. 2 THE COURT: No, I'm asking you the question, 3 doesn't it? 4 MR. WHITE: Yes, it does. 5 THE COURT: Okay. Please be seated. 6 Did you tell the truth when you made out the 7 logs? Yes or no? 8 THE WITNESS: No. 9 BY MR. JENKS: 10 Q So we know that you are capable of lying, correct? 11 A I can not answer that with a yes or no. 12 Q You can't answer that with a yes or no. 13 A I was given instructions to do that, sir. 14 Q When you created the letter -- 15 THE COURT: And you are following instructions, 16 good. Now you are doing that. 17 THE WITNESS: I was following instructions. 18 THE COURT: All right. 19 THE WITNESS: I was simply following 20 instructions. 21 THE COURT: By me? 22 THE WITNESS: Right. 23 THE COURT: Okay. I just want to make clear 24 whose instructions you were following. 25 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honor. OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1780 Gasper-cross/Jenks 1 THE COURT: All right. 2 BY MR. JENKS: 3 Q When you created the letter stating that Gordon had a 4 compensation agreement with Who's Who Worldwide since 5 January of 1993, were you telling the truth in that 6 letter? 7 A I cannot answer that with a yes or no. 8 Q You can't answer -- when you prepared that letter, 9 ma'am, did you believe it to be true that Gordon had a 10 compensation agreement with Who's Who Worldwide since 11 January 1, 1993? 12 Yes or no? 13 A I was told -- I was told yes there was a compensation 14 agreement. 15 Q Did you ever see the compensation agreement? 16 A I never saw it, no. I was told that there was a 17 document in the office, but I never saw it. 18 Q All right. 19 You never bothered to look for it and examine it 20 before you signed your name to a document stating that 21 Gordon had a compensation agreement? 22 A I was not given the privilege of looking at the 23 document or seeing the document. 24 Q Did you ask to see it? 25 A I was told it was locked. OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1781 Gasper-cross/Jenks 1 Q Did you ask to see the document? 2 A Yes, I said I would like to see the document. It's 3 in the office and it is locked. 4 Q So without seeing the document, you prepared a letter 5 stating that Gordon had a compensation agreement with 6 Who's Who Worldwide, correct? 7 A Yes. 8 Q Now, let's go back to the meeting with you and 9 Mr. Nicolisi, your attorney and Mr. White. 10 The subject of immunity comes up in that last 11 meeting, does it not? 12 A Yes, sir. 13 Q And in fact, would it be fair to say that Mr. White 14 tells you that the government is prepared to make an 15 application to get you immunity? 16 A It's a possibility. I do not recall it. 17 Q Did you understand at that meeting that if you would 18 agree to testify for the government, you would not be 19 charged with any crime? Would that be fair to say? 20 A That's what I was made to understand, yes. 21 Q In fact, you were made to understand if you didn't 22 agree to testify with the government, Mr. White was going 23 to add you as a defendant in the obstruction count with 24 Gordon and Reffsin, correct? 25 A I didn't get that far in the discussion, so I cannot OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1782 Gasper-cross/Jenks 1 answer that. 2 Q Well, you knew at that point that going there with 3 your attorney that you had a criminal problem, right? 4 A Uhm, yes. 5 Q You knew you had exposure that you could get charged 6 with a crime, right? 7 A Yes. 8 Q So you went there with your attorney to cut a deal 9 with the United States Government, did you not? 10 A To simply tell the truth. 11 Q To cut a deal, correct? 12 A Uhm, I don't call that a deal. 13 Q You don't call it a deal that you got a free walk 14 from prosecution in the case by getting immunity from 15 Mr. White? You don't call that a deal? 16 A I was simply telling the truth. Before, way before I 17 was even approached to bring in an attorney in this 18 situation and what I had volunteered told them stood up to 19 the present moment. 20 Q Did you make a deal with the United States Attorney 21 at that meeting to testify for them against Gordon and 22 Reffsin? 23 A Yes. 24 Q And in exchange for that deal or your testimony that 25 the government was going to get, they were going to give OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1783 Gasper-cross/Jenks 1 you immunity, correct? 2 A That's the understanding. 3 Q And that's what in fact you got, correct? 4 A Yes, sir. 5 Q They scratched your back; you scratch their back? 6 A Let's just put it in a different way. 7 Q Well, you agreed to do something for them and they 8 agreed to make sure that you stay home with your husband 9 and 18 year-old son and continue on with your life, right? 10 A That's better. 11 Q You don't expect to go to jail for what you've done? 12 A No. 13 Q You don't expect to get prosecuted for a felony? 14 A No. 15 Q Have you been charged with any crime from Mr. White 16 in your participation in creating these logs? 17 A No. 18 Q Do you expect, as you sit here today, to be charged 19 with any crime by anyone in the United States Government? 20 A No. 21 Q In fact, look at Government's Exhibit 805 in front of 22 you and let's read it along. It says at bottom of the 23 page "it is ordered pursuant to 18 U.S. Code Section 6002 24 that Maria Gaspar give testimony or provide other 25 information which she refuses to give or provide on her OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1784 Gasper-cross/Jenks 1 basis of her privilege against self-incrimination as to 2 all matters as to which she may be interrogated before the 3 grand jury." 4 Do you see that portion? 5 A Yes. 6 Q And it further says "in any further proceedings 7 resulting therefrom or ancillary thereto." 8 A Yes. 9 Q It says "no testimony or information compelled under 10 this order (or any information directly or indirectly 11 derived from such testimony or other information) may be 12 used against the witness in any criminal case." 13 Do you see that? 14 A Yes, I do. 15 Q So, in other words, what you got while you're 16 testifying here today is use immunity; am I correct? 17 A That's my understanding. 18 Q Do you have any other understandings with the United 19 States Government besides your getting immunity here 20 today? 21 A No. 22 Q Has Mr. White given you a wink and a node that you 23 will not be prosecuted for anything that you have done 24 concerning Who's Who Worldwide? 25 A Absolutely not. OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1785 Gasper-cross/Jenks 1 Q He has not told you as a representative of the 2 government that he will not prosecute you for what you've 3 done? 4 A Regarding the logs? 5 Q Regarding the logs or anything else. 6 A No. Once I say the truth, that's what I'm supposed 7 to say. 8 Q Once you say the truth as determined by Mr. White to 9 be the truth, correct? 10 A And my honesty. 11 Q Mr. White determines what the truth is in this case 12 as far as you're concerned, isn't that so? 13 Is that so? Yes or no? 14 A No. 15 Q Who determines whether or not you've told the truth 16 under this immunity order here, Mr. White or the lawyers 17 sitting over here (indicating)? 18 A If I had volunteered -- 19 MR. JENKS: Your Honor -- 20 A Mr. White. 21 Q Mr. White determines whether you tell the truth, 22 right? 23 A Correct. 24 Q So therefore, if Mr. White doesn't believe you told 25 the truth, you could be prosecuted, correct? OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1786 Gasper-cross/Jenks 1 A Correct. 2 Q It says that in here, right? It says "except the 3 prosecution for perjury, giving a false statement or 4 otherwise failing to comply with this order." 5 Do you see that, right? 6 A Umm-hmm. 7 Q In other words, you use immunity in that Mr. White 8 can't use your testimony here today against you in a 9 criminal case, right? You understand that? 10 A That's correct. 11 Q But that doesn't preclude him from prosecuting you 12 under this order for perjury or giving a false statement, 13 does it? 14 A That's correct. 15 Q And the person that sits and determines whether or 16 not you perjured yourself here is Mr. White and Ms. Scott, 17 right? They determine it? 18 A Yes, sir. 19 Q And so they have to be happy with what you have to 20 say here in front of this jury, correct? 21 A I would say so. 22 MR. JENKS: I have nothing further, Your Honor. 23 THE COURT: All right. 24 Anybody else. 25 MR. SCHOER: Yes, Your Honor. OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1787 Gasper-cross/Schoer 1 CROSS-EXAMINATION 2 BY MR. SCHOER: 3 Q Ms. Gaspar, you testified yesterday concerning the 4 American Express bills; is that correct? 5 A That's correct. 6 Q Do you remember that? You were looking at them 7 yesterday? 8 A Yes, sir. 9 Q And you testified concerning handwritten notations 10 that were on the American Express bills? 11 A Yes, sir. 12 Q Those were handwritten notations made by Liz Sautter; 13 is that correct? 14 A That's correct. 15 Q And if you remember some of those -- I think you 16 mentioned that there was the letter T, referring to 17 somebody who made charges on her card? 18 A The letter T? 19 Q Yes. You said there was a letter L, there was a 20 letter B relating to Mr. -- 21 A There were initials. I don't recall exactly which 22 ones they were. 23 Q Do you know whether she had a sister named Teresa? 24 A I don't know. 25 Q Okay. OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1788 Gasper-cross/Schoer 1 Did you ever receive any checks from Tara with 2 respect to anything that was done on Liz Sautter's credit 3 card? 4 A Not that I remember. 5 Q Okay. 6 So if there is a reference to "T" in those credit 7 card bills, that wouldn't have anything to do with Tara 8 Garboski? 9 A I don't think Tara had anything to do with the credit 10 card, if that's what you are alleging. 11 Q I'm asking you. 12 A No. 13 Q Now, you indicated that Liz Sautter was the most 14 trusted employee of Bruce Gordon; is that correct? 15 A To my knowledge, it was, yes. 16 Q And she made certain decisions; isn't that correct? 17 A That's correct. 18 Q And before you were there, she handled the duties you 19 handled once you were at Who's Who? 20 A That's correct. 21 Q And after you left, she, as far as you know, handled 22 those duties as well, isn't that so? 23 A I trained her to continue doing it. What happened 24 afterwards, I have no clue. 25 Q Mr. Gordon, would you say he was a hands-on employer? OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1789 Gasper-cross/Schoer 1 A To what respect? 2 Q With respect to all decisions that were made at Who's 3 Who. 4 A Absolutely. 5 Q And I think you testified that he basically approved 6 every check that was written on Who's Who and all other 7 corporations. 8 A Every check from any corporation was signed only by 9 Mr. Gordon. 10 Q And only after he told you to write the check, isn't 11 that so? 12 A He would give me the instructions. I would generate 13 the check, give him the check back, each one of the 14 checks, and any bills or whatever would be the support, 15 the amount of the check and the check and give it to him 16 for signature. 17 Q As far as you knew he was making similar detailed 18 decisions concerning what administration was doing; isn't 19 that correct? 20 A He was very much involved with everything. 21 Q I'm asking you a question. 22 A Yes. 23 Q As far as you knew, he was making similar detailed 24 decisions with respect to what administration was doing, 25 the people in administration; isn't that correct? OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1790 Gasper-cross/Schoer 1 Yes or no? Correct? 2 A I was not working in administration. I would say 3 yes. 4 Q Okay. 5 And as far as you knew, he was making similar 6 detailed decisions with respect to the duties and 7 functions of the people that were in Public Affairs, 8 Public Relations, isn't that so? 9 A Yes. 10 Q And as far as you knew, he was making similar 11 detailed decisions with respect to the people that were in 12 sales; isn't that correct? 13 A Oh, definitely. 14 Q You testified yesterday on direct examination 15 concerning the fact that Mr. Gordon had a car, a corporate 16 car; is that correct? 17 A Yes. 18 Q And there were other people that had corporate cars 19 as well, isn't that so? 20 A I recall some, yes. 21 Q Liz Sautter had a corporate car? 22 A Yes, sir. 23 Q Debra Benjamin? 24 A Yes. 25 Q Tara Garboski didn't have a corporate car, did she? OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1791 Gasper-cross/Schoer 1 A No. No. No. 2 Q You testified there came a time when Mr. Gordon 3 wanted to reduce the monthly fee that Marty Reffsin was 4 receiving, is that correct, and Mr. Reffsin got upset? 5 A That's correct. 6 Q Do you know when that was? 7 A I can't tell you. Sometime probably in the spring of 8 '94, but I really don't know the date. 9 Q Did there come a time when you had conversations with 10 Mr. Gordon or anyone else that he wanted to reduce the 11 salaries of Tara Garboski? 12 A I don't recall. 13 Q But it may have happened? 14 A It could have happened. It could have happened, but 15 I'm not -- I can't tell you the specifics. 16 Q Now, you testified on cross-examination by 17 Mr. Trabulus that the people who were named in the logs 18 that you prepared, those false logs, that you told some of 19 those people about the fact that they were in those logs; 20 isn't that correct? 21 A That's correct. 22 Q Did you tell Debra Benjamin about the fact that she 23 was in the log? 24 A Debra Benjamin was one of the people I mentioned it 25 to. OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1792 Gasper-cross/Schoer 1 Q Did you mention it to Liz Sautter? 2 A Liz Sautter, yes, I did. 3 Q Did you mention it to Suzanne Konopka? 4 A Yes, I did. 5 Q Did you mention it to Tracey Coletti? 6 A Yes. 7 Q Did you mention it to Tara Garboski? 8 A I don't recall. 9 Q You remember the others, but you don't remember that, 10 right? 11 A I don't even remember having a conversation with the 12 four people that you mentioned. 13 Q And that was at one time that you had that 14 conversation or everybody together? 15 A Liz Sautter was on an occasion by itself. Debra 16 Benjamin, Suzanne and Tracey, I recall they were having 17 lunch and I happen to be taking a copy of the document to 18 fax over to Mr. Reffsin, if I recall correctly. 19 Q Do you recall if those were the one time that you had 20 a discussion with them? 21 A Yes, those would be one time. 22 Q You indicated that you had no ownership interest in 23 Who's Who Worldwide; is that correct? 24 A That's correct. 25 Q And you had no financial interest in Who's Who OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1793 Gasper-cross/Nelson 1 Worldwide; is that correct? 2 A That's correct. 3 Q And therefore you had -- you testified you had no 4 reason to make falsehoods; is that correct? 5 A Absolutely. 6 Q Did Tara Garboski have an ownership interest in Who's 7 Who Worldwide? 8 A Not that I know of. 9 MR. SCHOER: Nothing further. 10 CROSS-EXAMINATION 11 BY MR. NELSON: 12 Q Did Tara Garboski have a financial interest in Who's 13 Who? 14 A Not that I know, just an employee. 15 Q She was an employee? 16 A Yes. 17 Q She had no reason to falsify documents on behalf of 18 Who's Who Worldwide; is that correct? 19 A Not that I know of. 20 Q I believe it was your testimony that you became 21 employed at Who's Who Worldwide in approximately December 22 of 1992? 23 A '93. 24 Q And you left the company on October of 1994; is that 25 correct? OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1794 Gasper-cross/Nelson 1 A That's correct. 2 Q So you were working for the company for approximately 3 ten months? 4 A Approximately. 5 Q During the period you were employed at Who's Who 6 Worldwide, did you ever come to know an individual by the 7 name of Oral Frank Osman? 8 A Who? 9 Q Oral Frank Osman. 10 A The name doesn't sound familiar. 11 Q I represent an individual by the name of Frank Osman, 12 also known as Frank Martin, seated over here with the 13 white hair. 14 Have you ever met that gentleman? 15 A Frank Martin. The name sounds familiar, but I never 16 really remember seeing him that much. 17 Q Did you ever remember seeing him at Who's Who 18 Worldwide while you were an employee there? 19 A There's a possibility that I saw. We used to work in 20 the other sales areas, maybe. Maybe I seen him once or 21 twice but I'm not really very sure of the face. 22 Q During the ten-month period of time you were employed 23 at Who's Who Worldwide, approximately how many group 24 managers were there, if you recall? 25 A Group leaders? OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1795 Gasper-cross/Nelson 1 Q That's correct. 2 A How many? 3 Q Yes. 4 A Four, five. I don't really know. It was an area 5 that I really wasn't very much involved. 6 Q Do you remember who any of those individuals were? 7 A I remember some of them. 8 Q Who were them? 9 A Tara was one. There was this guy Bob, Bob Lamb, 10 L-a-m-b, I believe it was. There was another gentleman 11 that I can't remember his name, he was kind of chunky and 12 short, Michael something. It's really difficult for me to 13 really come up with the group leaders. 14 Q Do you remember Frank Martin as being a group leader 15 during the period of time that you were working at Who's 16 Who Worldwide? 17 A Not necessarily. 18 Q Okay. 19 And do you see any of the other group leaders 20 beside Tara present here in the courtroom today? 21 A I don't think so. I don't think -- Laura, I don't 22 think she was a group leader. I don't recall seeing 23 anybody else here as a group leader. 24 Q During that ten-month period of time you were 25 employed at Who's Who Worldwide, did the sales staff OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1796 Gasper-cross/Nelson 1 remain the same, grow larger or fluctuate in any manner? 2 A Big turnover. 3 Q There were a lot of people turning over on some 4 regular basis? 5 A Yes. 6 Q And did the size of the sales staff increase at all? 7 A On and off, you know, basically the same amount that 8 I can think of. 9 Q Am I correct that the company expanded during the 10 period of time that you were working there and that 11 Sterling opened while you were an employee of Who's Who 12 Worldwide? 13 A Sterling was a different identity altogether. As far 14 as the people in Who's Who Worldwide, to the best of my 15 recollection, there were about basically -- the number 16 would fluctuate but not that much. 17 Q So the company remained generally the same size but 18 there was a fair amount of turnover; is that correct? 19 A To the best of my knowledge. 20 MR. NELSON: Thank you. I have no further 21 questions. 22 THE COURT: Anybody else? 23 MR. NEVILLE: Yes. 24 (Continued.) 25 OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1797 Gasper-cross/Neville 1 CROSS-EXAMINATION 2 BY MR. NEVILLE: 3 Q Good afternoon, ma'am. My name is Jim Neville. I 4 represent Scott Michaelson. 5 A Did you lose a lot of weight? 6 Yeah, okay. Now I remember him. 7 Q You testified to having four meetings with the 8 government personnel? 9 A That's correct, sir. 10 Q And the first meeting took place at the Huntington 11 Townhouse, you said? 12 A That's correct. 13 Q What is that, the Huntington Townhouse? 14 A A catering house. You don't know the name? Haven't 15 you been there? 16 Q No, I confess. 17 You went to a catering house with the government 18 agents? 19 A No, I used to be the comptroller-administrator of the 20 Huntington Townhouse. 21 Q I see. 22 And they came to where you worked? 23 A That's correct. 24 Q Do you remember what time of day it was when they 25 came? OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1798 Gasper-cross/Neville 1 A I don't remember. 2 Q How many of them came, do you remember? 3 A I believe three. 4 Q Three men in suits? 5 A I don't know what they were wearing. I know -- there 6 were three men. 7 Q Right. 8 And did they show you badges? 9 A Actually the secretary called me and told me there 10 were three gentlemen upstairs with badges coming down and 11 when they came down to my office they did show me the 12 badge, yes. 13 Q So your receptionist or secretary alerted you that 14 these three men with badges were coming down to see you; 15 is that right? 16 A It was like a split second between the time she 17 called me and the time they showed up. 18 Q So they just came in? 19 A That's correct. 20 Q Did they knock when they came in? 21 A No, I actually had the door open. 22 Q Did they just walk through the open door? 23 A That is correct. 24 Q Did they ask to come in? 25 A Uhm, I actually opened the door and then I told them OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1799 Gasper-cross/Neville 1 to come in. 2 Q Were they smiling when they came in? 3 A I can't tell you that. 4 Q Were you smiling when they came in? 5 A There was no comment or action, I don't think so. 6 Q Were you afraid? 7 A No. 8 Q Did you have any idea why three men with badges would 9 come down and walk into your office? 10 A Anything came to my mind because not long ago I had 11 immigration come to my office regarding an immigration 12 case. I had no clue why they were there. 13 Q Did they ask if they could sit down with you in your 14 office? 15 A Actually I was in the office with the owner of the 16 company which in the meantime passed away and I remember 17 one of the gentlemen was asking him permission to leave 18 the office and just leave me with him or else he would 19 have to be subpoenaed and serve as a witness in a 20 conversation that will be taking place. 21 Q I see. 22 And so your boss who has since passed away left 23 the room? 24 A Yes, correct. 25 Q Because he didn't want to be part of what was going OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1800 Gasper-cross/Neville 1 to be happening, right? 2 A Well, he was told to leave, so he did. 3 Q He was told to leave, wasn't he? 4 A He was kind of told if you stay you will have to be a 5 witness. 6 Q Yes. 7 Did he have any choice whether he could stay or 8 leave? 9 A I'm sure he did. 10 Q Those agents welcomed him to stay and it was his 11 choice? 12 A They didn't force him out, no. They didn't force him 13 out. 14 Q So then it was just you by yourself with those three 15 men with badges, right? 16 A That's correct. 17 Q And any one of these men at the table there 18 (indicating)? 19 A I believe Mr. Jordan was the only one present at the 20 time. 21 Q And two other men with badges? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Did all three men with badges show you their badges? 24 A Yes, they did, and if I recall they gave me their 25 business card at the time too. OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1801 Gasper-cross/Neville 1 Q So you sat down with these three men with badges, 2 right? 3 A That's correct. 4 Q Now, what did you talk about? 5 A Whatever they asked me. 6 Q So they had questions for you? 7 A That's correct. 8 Q And when they came in and asked you questions, do you 9 recall what those questions were about? 10 A I can't tell. This is four years ago. I can't. 11 Whatever the questions were. They were all related to 12 Who's Who Worldwide. That much I can tell you. 13 Q They didn't ask you what you had for breakfast, 14 right? 15 A No. 16 Q Now, when these men came down and showed you their 17 badges, did you know that they were law enforcement men? 18 A Obviously, yes. 19 Q And that was the first meeting, wasn't it? 20 A Yes, sir. 21 Q Did they sit you down and explain to you that you 22 have no obligation to speak to them at all? 23 A I don't recall. 24 Q Did they tell you under the law of this country, if 25 you just wanted to say nothing to them that was your OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1802 Gasper-cross/Neville 1 right, privilege and constitutional protection? 2 A Again, I don't recall. 3 Q Did they ask you if you wanted to speak to them? 4 A I guess the conversation just came and questions were 5 brought and answers were given and I don't remember any of 6 those things coming about. 7 Q How long did that first meeting take? 8 A It could be an hour, hour-and-a-half, somewhere 9 around there. 10 Q Pretty long. 11 Did you talk with the agents during that whole 12 hour, hour-and-a-half or were there long lulls of silence? 13 A No, we were talking. 14 Q So a lot was discussed during that hour, 15 hour-and-a-half? 16 A Don't ask me what, because I can't recall it. 17 Q Do you remember anybody sitting down with a pad and 18 pen and jotting down notes as you spoke? 19 A I don't recall it, no. 20 Q Do you recall if anyone had a tape-recorder and 21 turned that on? 22 A Again, I don't know. 23 Q The second meeting, when did that take place with 24 these -- withdrawn. 25 You had a second meeting with members of the OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1803 Gasper-cross/Neville 1 government, right? 2 A That's correct. 3 Q The same three men with badges came? 4 A Different people. Mr. Jordan, I met Mr. White for 5 the first time at that meeting and there was some other 6 gentleman. I don't know if it was Mr. Pagano or somebody 7 else. No, I don't think it was Mr. Pagano. I'm not sure 8 what who it was. 9 Q So it was the second meeting that you spoke with the 10 government that you met Mr. White? 11 A The first time, yes. 12 Q For the first time. 13 And is that second meeting held at Mr. White's 14 office? 15 A No, sir. It was held in the Hicksville Post Office 16 area. 17 Q Was there present by any chance a postal inspector in 18 addition to Inspector Pagano that you can recall by the 19 name of Biegelman? 20 A The name is familiar. As I said before, I can't 21 remember the gentleman's face or anything, but the name is 22 very familiar. 23 Q Now, during that second meeting, did anybody take any 24 notes? 25 A I can't tell you. OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1804 Gasper-cross/Neville 1 Q Did they call you up and ask you to come down to the 2 Hicksville Post Office? 3 A Yes, we made an appointment. They wanted to meet me 4 and that was the only time I had available was that 5 Saturday morning. 6 Q Who called you? Do you remember? 7 A Either Mr. White or Mr. Jordan, one of them. 8 Q What did they say? Do you remember? 9 A That we had to get together and talk. 10 Q And then what did you say? 11 A I don't remember. We discussed when and how and how 12 long it was going to take. 13 Q Did you feel you had any choice whether you wanted to 14 speak to them or not, whether you had to or not? 15 A I had nothing to hide at that point, so whatever they 16 wanted to ask, they were law enforcement. I answered 17 them. 18 Q No problem, right, like going to Macy's to go 19 shopping. 20 A I didn't think nothing of it. 21 Q Okay. 22 A If I was afraid I would have gotten an attorney at 23 that point, I would say. 24 Q And they didn't tell you to get an attorney yet, did 25 they? OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1805 Gasper-cross/Neville 1 A No, they didn't. 2 Q How long did the second meeting last? 3 A Probably about another hour, hour-and-a-half. 4 Q So far between the first two meetings you had spoken 5 to these people for a total of about three hours? 6 A It's a possibility. 7 Q And through that second meeting nobody at this table 8 who was present at that meeting (indicating) or Inspector 9 Biegelman or whomever else was there from the government 10 told you to get a lawyer? 11 A Not that I recall. 12 Q And you were talking about things that involved law 13 enforcement investigations, you understood that, right? 14 A Yeah. 15 Q Did they tell you -- 16 A Yes, I did. 17 Q I'm sorry. 18 A Yes, I did. I corrected the -- 19 Q Did they tell you at any time that they were 20 investigating you, ma'am? 21 A No, they did not. 22 Q They didn't. 23 For three hours they spoke to you and they didn't 24 say a word that they were investigating you? 25 A Not that I recall. OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1806 Gasper-cross/Neville 1 Q Well, you probably would remember something like 2 that, wouldn't you? 3 A Absolutely. 4 Q Have you ever been stopped by a cop for a traffic 5 ticket? 6 A Yes. 7 Q Did you ever get nervous when a cop stops you for a 8 traffic ticket? 9 A I got stopped once. That was it. 10 Q Were you nervous? 11 A I knew I had violated the law. 12 Q I'm not asking you that. I'm asking you if you were 13 nervous? 14 A Not necessarily. 15 Q Do you ever get nervous about anything, ma'am? 16 A You are getting me nervous right now. 17 Q Good. 18 But you weren't nervous when Inspector Pagano and 19 Agent Jordan and Mr. White were talking to you about their 20 investigation of Who's Who for the total of three hours, 21 you weren't nervous? 22 A No. 23 Q No. 24 And they didn't tell you to get a lawyer for 25 those first two meetings? OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1807 Gasper-cross/Neville 1 A That's correct. 2 Q But then there did come a time when they told you to 3 get a lawyer, didn't they? 4 A That's correct. 5 Q And that was at the third meeting, wasn't it? 6 A To my recollection, yes. 7 Q And it wasn't even prior to the third meeting that 8 they told you to bring a lawyer but rather in the midst of 9 the third meeting they told you to get a lawyer, right? 10 A I think they started the meeting by telling me I 11 should contact an attorney. 12 Q They didn't call you up beforehand before that third 13 meeting and say we'd like to meet with you but we think 14 you ought to have a lawyer present, did they? 15 A Not on the phone do I recall. 16 Q Where did the third meeting take place, ma'am? 17 A In the Huntington Townhouse again. 18 Q Was your then boss present? 19 A He was deceased by then. 20 Q Was anyone else present? 21 A Myself. 22 Q The meeting happened in that same office where that 23 first meeting, that hour-and-a-half meeting occurred? 24 A Yes. 25 Q Just you and who at the third meeting? OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1808 Gasper-cross/Neville 1 A Mr. White, Mr. Jordan and maybe Mr. Pagano. 2 Q So Mr. Jordan had been at all the meetings? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Would you say that Mr. Jordan was kind of the leader 5 of the group? 6 A He was one of the group. I couldn't tell one being 7 more important than the other. 8 Q Well, clearly Mr. White was the most important man at 9 the meetings, right? 10 A Well, not specifying or making himself to that 11 extent. 12 Q I understand. 13 But the person who was at all three meetings was 14 Mr. Jordan, no one else, was at all three meetings but 15 him? 16 A Yes. 17 Q And you? 18 A That's correct. 19 Q And do you remember who it was that told you that you 20 ought to get a lawyer at that third meeting? 21 A I cannot tell you who came up with it. Probably 22 Mr. White, probably. I'm not sure. 23 Q And Mr. White had met with you during the second 24 meeting, right? 25 A That's correct. OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1809 Gasper-cross/Neville 1 Q At the Hicksville Post Office, right? 2 A That's correct. 3 Q And during that second meeting Mr. White didn't tell 4 you to get a lawyer, did he? 5 A That's correct. 6 Q Did you know at the time during the first meeting and 7 the second meeting that you were speaking to these men in 8 suits with badges that they could hold against you what 9 you were saying? 10 A Not at all. 11 Q You had no clue, did you? |