3913 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT EASTERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK 2 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - X 3 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, : CR 96 1016(S-1) 4 v. : U.S. Courthouse 5 Uniondale, New York BRUCE W. GORDON, WHO'S WHO 6 WORLD WIDE REGISTRY, INC., : STERLING WHO'S WHO, INC., 7 TARA GARBOSKI, ORAL FRANK : OSMAN, LAURA WEITZ, ANNETTE 8 HALEY, SCOTT MICHAELSON, : and MARTIN 9 REFFSIN, : TRANSCRIPT OF TRIAL 10 Defendants. : February 12, 1998 11 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - X 9:22 o'clock a.m. 12 BEFORE: 13 HONORABLE ARTHUR D. SPATT, U.S.D.J and a jury 14 APPEARANCES: 15 For the Government: ZACHARY W. CARTER 16 United States Attorney One Pierrepont Plaza 17 Brooklyn, New York 11201 By: RONALD G. WHITE, ESQ. 18 CECIL SCOTT, ESQ. Assistant U.S. Attorneys 19 For the Defendants: NORMAN TRABULUS, ESQ. 20 For Bruce W. Gordon 170 Old Country Road, Suite 600 21 Mineola, New York 11501 22 EDWARD P. JENKS, ESQ. For Who's Who Worldwide 23 Registry, Inc. and Sterling Who's, Who, Inc. 24 332 Willis Avenue Mineola, New York 11501 25 (cont'd)
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3914 1 APPEARANCES (cont'd): 2 GARY SCHOER, ESQ. For Tara Garboski 3 6800 Jericho Turnpike Syosset, New York 11791 4 ALAN M. NELSON, ESQ. 5 For Oral Frank Osman 3000 Marcus Avenue 6 Lake Success, New York 11042
7 WINSTON LEE, ESQ. For Laura Weitz 8 319 Broadway New York, New York 10007 9 MARTIN GEDULDIG, ESQ. 10 For Annette Haley 400 South Oyster Bay Road 11 Hicksville, New York 11801 12 JAMES C. NEVILLE, ESQ. For Scott Michaelson 13 225 Broadway New York, New York 10007 14 THOMAS F.X. DUNN, ESQ. 15 For MrShortcut, 150 Nassau Street 16 New York, New York 10038 17 JOHN S. WALLENSTEIN, ESQ. For Martin Reffsin 18 215 Hilton Avenue Hempstead, New York 11551 19 20 Court Reporter: HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR United States District Court 21 Two Uniondale Avenue Uniondale, New York 11553 22 (516) 485-6558 23 Proceedings recorded by mechanical stenography, transcript 24 produced by Computer-Assisted Transcription 25
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3915 1 M O R N I N G S E S S I O N 2
3 (Whereupon, the following takes place in the
4 absence of the jury.
5 THE COURT: The issue is, attack as a recent
6 fabrication. A very interesting evidentiary rule, which I
7 had an opportunity as a lawyer to test in the Appellate
8 Division, so I remember a little bit about it.
9 You were supposed to show me that there was an 10 attack as a recent fabrication, were you not? 11 MR. WHITE: I do, and I have the transcript 12 citations, your Honor. 13 THE COURT: What are the citations? 14 MR. WHITE: First of all, your Honor, in 15 Mr. Trabulus' opening at page 92 of the transcript, he 16 indicates that -- he tells the jury they will hear 17 Ms. Gaspar testify. And he says to listen carefully to 18 what she is asked, and some of the reasons she has to say 19 something different now than what she said before. 20 THE COURT: He said that in his opening 21 statement? 22 MR. WHITE: Yes, on page 92 of the transcript. 23 THE COURT: All right. 24 MR. WHITE: Then, on the cross-examination by 25 Mr. Trabulus of Ms. Gaspar, he made -- he asked a series
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3916 1 of questions suggesting that at the time t
hat the agents 2 came to speak to Ms. Gaspar, that they had indicated to
3 her, or that she had thought that her participation was
4 already known to them, in other words, that the agents
5 already found out about her phony logs and, therefore, had
6 the reason to fabricate.
7 Page 1732 he asked her when she first talked to
8 the government.
9 Page 1736, he says, and didn't they tell you that 10 they had spoken to other people, and that the people whose 11 names are on the logs, that told them that they didn't 12 attend those meetings, in other words, that the agents 13 confronted Ms. Gaspar at that point. 14 Page 1739 he says, you knew when they spoke to 15 you that there was a criminal investigation under way. 16 Then on page 1741 he says, they indicated that 17 they knew about the logs. And he said, and then you tell 18 them, yeah, I did it, but they told
me -- they told me to 19 do it, right? 20 In other words, he is implying that when they 21 made up the story. 22 THE COURT: Who is "they"? 23 MR. WHITE: In Mr. Trabulus' question the "they" 24 is Mr. Gordon and Mr. Reffsin. On those pages 25 Mr. Trabulus is confronting Ms. Gaspar saying you realized
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3917 1 when the agents confronted you about the evidence, they 2 knew about your participation you felt. And the response
3 was yes, I did it, but they, Gordon and Reffsin, told me
4 to do it.
5 Mr. Trabulus immediately followed it up on page
6 1742, and said that the agents -- he asked Ms. Gaspar, did
7 the agents tell you that they weren't interested in you
8 but your bosses? Again implying at that point she had
9 that motive. 10 On his recross, pages 1874 through 1877 he
goes 11 through all of the same themes again that the agents 12 confronted her with her participation, and wasn't it true 13 that the agents knew of the falsification of the logs; 14 didn't it occur to you that the agents might have found 15 out about your logs through talking to other people? 16 So, the clear implication of the questions was 17 that it was only when she was confronted, and it appeared 18 to her that the agents knew about it, that she raised this 19 story. 20 THE COURT: Another problem I am having with 21 this, Mr. White, is whether it is a prior consistent 22 statement in the first place. 23 We know that the law abhors prior consistent 24 statements, and this is probably the only evidentiary rule 25 that permits the use of a prior consistent statement.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3918 1
Now, even assuming you have an attack as a recent 2 fabrication, you must have an unequivocal prior consistent
3 statement.
4 Now, what is the prior consistent statement?
5 MR. WHITE: The statement as recounted by
6 Ms. Benjamin is that several weeks before Ms. Gaspar left
7 the company, Ms. Gaspar comes to her extremely upset and
8 says that Mr. Gordon and Mr. Reffsin have asked her to do
9 certain things that she didn't like to do. When you 10 overlay that with Ms. Gaspar's testimony it is 11 consistent. Ms. Gaspar said she left the company in late 12 1994. She created the logs in late September '94, thus a 13 few weeks, about four weeks before she left. 14 She said Mr. Gordon and Mr. Reffsin told her to 15 do things that she didn't like. That's what she tells 16 Ms. Benjamin. 17 Ms. Gaspar's testimony is that Mr. Gordon and 18 Mr. Reffsin around that time
instructed her to do these 19 logs, which were phony, which were a crime. 20 THE COURT: Except she didn't tell Ms. Benjamin, 21 apparently, if I recall her testimony, and I probably have 22 it by now, that Mr. Gordon and Mr. Reffsin told her to lie 23 in the logs. 24 MR. WHITE: Correct. She is not that specific. 25 But I don't think the rule requires that it be that
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3919 1 specific. 2 THE COURT: I think it does. I think that you
3 have to be very careful with this rule.
4 As a matter of fact, the texts on the subject
5 say -- well, they say in effect, be careful about it. I
6 am going to be careful and exclude it.
7 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, the jury has already
8 heard it.
9 THE COURT: I know. 10 MR. WHITE: And it -- 11 THE COURT: You can keep it in if it was a
n 12 admission by the corporation. However, the corporation -- 13 is that admissible as to any of the counts in the 14 indictment independent of the recent -- the attack as a 15 recent fabrication? 16 MR. WHITE: No, the corporation is not named in 17 the obstruction county or tax count. 18 May I request this, your Honor? I believe the 19 case law would support it. And over last night and during 20 the lunch break I didn't have the time to do it more 21 exhaustively. Will your Honor give me the opportunity to 22 review it tonight and tomorrow either give you something 23 in written or cite the cases to your Honor before you tell 24 them to not consider it and consider it again if I were to 25 be persuasive?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3920 1 THE COURT: Yes, I will do that. 2 Ready to go?
3 MR. TRA
BULUS: Judge, may I go to the wash room?
4 THE COURT: Quickly.
5 MR. WALLENSTEIN: I need to talk to Mr. Trabulus
6 about the opportunity to do this, so I will take that up
7 with him at this time.
8 THE COURT: Good thinking.
9 10 (Whereupon, a recess is taken.) 11 12 THE COURT: Some day I will have to tell you 13 about the attack on the recent fabrication case that I 14 had, which is really very interesting, when we have some 15 time. 16 MR. WHITE: If I find it, shall I put it in my 17 paper to you? 18 THE COURT: Yes. It is called Licht, L I C H T, 19 Rule against the City Savings Bank. The same rule 20 applies. 21 MR. WALLENSTEIN: Did the Appellate Division 22 agree with you? 23 THE COURT: Yes, they did. Would I tell you 24 otherwise? 25 MR. WHITE: Did the statement come in or not?
HARRY RAPAPOR
T, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3921 1 THE COURT: It didn't come in, but it caused a 2 reversal because it should have come in.
3 MR. WHITE: Then I like the case.
4
5 D E B R A B E N J A M I N ,
6 called as a witness, having been previously
7 duly sworn, was examined and testified as
8 follows:
9 10 THE CLERK: Jury entering. 11 (Whereupon, the jury at this time entered the 12 courtroom.) 13 THE COURT: Good morning, members of the jury. 14 Please be seated. I want to thank you for being 15 so punctual and prompt and proper. I am thinking of 16 another P, but I can't -- perfect. All of you this time. 17 I am sorry to have kept you waiting. I had 18 another matter -- several other matters. In fact, I have 19 not been able to conclude one matter that we had to put 20 over. These are the matters that caused th
e delay. 21 Sorry about that. 22 You may proceed. 23 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, I have no further 24 questions for Ms. Benjamin. 25 THE COURT: All right. Cross-examination.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3922 1 MR. TRABULUS: Mr. Wallenstein will go first, 2 your Honor.
3
4 CROSS-EXAMINATION
5 BY MR. WALLENSTEIN:
6 Q Good morning, Ms. Benjamin.
7 A Good morning.
8 Q My name is John Wallenstein, and I represent Martin
9 Reffsin. 10 Ms. Benjamin, you worked at Who's Who during what 11 period of time? 12 A From the fall of 1992 until March of '95. 13 Q Do you know Mr. Reffsin? 14 A Yes. 15 Q On how many occasions have you seen Mr. Reffsin at 16 the Who's Who offices in Lake Success? 17 A About once a month, just to the say hello in passing. 18 Q Okay.
19 Would it be fair to say that the extent of your 20 contact with him was you knew who he was, he knew who you 21 were, and you would just have a greeting in the hallway? 22 A Yes. 23 Q All right. 24 In your section of the operation, you had nothing 25 to do with Mr. Reffsin directly; is that right?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3923 Benjamin-cross/Wallenstein
1 A That is correct. 2 Q And you knew Mr. Reffsin to be an outside accountant;
3 is that correct?
4 A Yes.
5 Q You were aware that he had his own accounting firm
6 and he came in to do the books once a month or so?
7 A Yes.
8 Q And when he came in, he had some interaction with
9 Mr. Gordon; is that correct? 10 A Well, he was in Mr. Gordon's office usually. 11 Q Also with Ms. Gaspar? 12 A Yes. 13 Q How about Liz Sautte
r? 14 A On occasion. 15 Q And none with you in your section? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Ms. Konopka and Colletti worked for you? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Is it fair to say neither of them would have a reason 20 to have an interaction with Mr. Reffsin? 21 A That's correct. 22 Q I will have you look in evidence at what is 23 Government's Exhibit 643. 24 You were asked to look at those yesterday. 25 (Handed to the witness.)
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3924 Benjamin-cross/Wallenstein
1 A Yes. 2 Q Would you take that out of the plastic, please.
3 What you have there are the usage logs for the
4 Hummingbird condo and the penthouse on East 54th Street,
5 correct?
6 A Yes.
7 Q And you indicated yesterday.
8 That you were not present at any of the meetings
9 where your name appears on the log
s; is that right? 10 A That's correct. 11 Q Would it be fair to say that to the best of your 12 knowledge, none of the people who worked for you were 13 there either? 14 A Yes, also. 15 Q And that would be Suzanne and Tracey; is that 16 correct? 17 A Uh-huh. 18 THE COURT: Yes? 19 THE WITNESS: Yes, I am sorry. 20 Q Anyone else who appeared in this log who worked for 21 you? 22 A Maggie Swendseid. 23 Q Do you know whether she was present at any of the 24 meetings where she is alleged to have been? 25 A No. We worked very closely together. She was based
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3925 Benjamin-cross/Wallenstein
1 in the Manhattan office, maybe there was an occasion that 2 that you there that I was not aware of, but in general, I
3 would say no.
4 Q Is it a fair statement t
hat Mr. Reffsin had no
5 interaction with Ms. Swendseid either?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Do you in fact know whether he even knew who she was
8 or her name?
9 A I wouldn't know that. 10 Q There are some other names appearing in this log, 11 Mr. Gordon's name and Ms. Sautter's name, do you know if 12 Mr. Reffsin new Robert Lamb? 13 A I don't know, possibly from sight, passing him in the 14 company. 15 Q Do you know Mr. Lamb's position in the company? 16 A He was a group leader. 17 Q He was involved in the sales? 18 A Uh-huh. 19 Q Something outside of Mr. Reffsin's area? 20 A Yes. 21 Q And Tara Green was also a group leader? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Do you know who Harold Sims is? 24 A I think Harold was also a group leader at one time. 25 I am not 100 percent sure on that.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
3926 Benjamin-cross/Wallenstein
1 Q Okay. 2 Would it be fair to say whoever Harold Sims is or
3 was, he would have had no reason to have any interaction
4 with Mr. Reffsin either?
5 MR. WHITE: Objection to the form of the
6 question, what Mr. Reffsin would know.
7 THE COURT: Can I hear the question,
8 Mr. Reporter?
9 (Whereupon, the court reporter reads the 10 requested material.) 11 THE COURT: Overruled. 12 A I am not 100 percent sure who Harold Sims is, so I 13 wouldn't know if he had reason to have interaction with 14 Mr. Reffsin. 15 Q Do you know if Mr. Sims worked in the financial area 16 or had anything to do with the company's books? 17 A Not that's I am aware of. 18 Q Okay. 19 Can you tell us who Michael Powers is? 20 A He was a group leader. 21 Q Also in the sales area? 22 A Yes.
23 Q And Tom R, do you know who that would be? 24 A Who? 25 Q Tom R.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3927 Benjamin-cross/Wallenstein
1 A No. 2 Q Last initial R.
3 A No.
4 Q Gary Kohler?
5 A The computer person, the MIS person.
6 Q You indicated that neither you nor any of the people
7 who worked for you were present at any of the meetings
8 that you are alleged to have attended?
9 A On the -- 10 Q On the logs. 11 A Yes. 12 Q And would it be fair to say that Maria Gaspar was 13 present in the office on a day-to-day basis? 14 A Yes. 15 Q And would it be fair to say that she was aware of the 16 responsibility of the people named in these logs? 17 A Yes. 18 Q And would it be fair to say that she was aware of 19 working relationships, and by that I mean she would know
20 who worked together with who? 21 A Yes. 22 Q And would it also be fair to say that she would know 23 what particular areas of the company people would be 24 working together on? 25 A Yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3928 Benjamin-cross/Wallenstein
1 Q Would it also be fair to say that Mr. Gordon knew 2 everything that was going on in the company?
3 A Yes.
4 MR. TRABULUS: Objection.
5 THE COURT: Overruled.
6 Q He was a hands on CEO?
7 A Very much so.
8 Q A fair statement?
9 A Very much so. 10 Q Would it be fair to say that Mr. Gordon's philosophy 11 of running the company was, it is my company, and I'll do 12 whatever I want. And I don't care what anybody else has 13 to say? 14 MR. TRABULUS: Objection. 15 THE COURT: Overruled. 16 A Would you ask that qu
estion again as to philosophy? 17 Q Let me withdraw the question and rephrase it for 18 you. 19 Mr. Gordon ran the company the way Mr. Gordon 20 wanted to run the company, correct? 21 A Yes. 22 Q If he asked you for your input and your advice and 23 you gave it to him, sometimes you took it and sometimes 24 you didn't; is that correct? 25 A That is correct.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3929 Benjamin-cross/Wallenstein
1 Q If he felt whatever you had to say what something he 2 didn't want to do or wasn't interested in or didn't agree
3 with, he wouldn't do it?
4 A That's correct.
5 Q Even if you were right?
6 A I guess that's correct.
7 Q He in fact had attorneys working for him for the
8 company, correct, from time to time?
9 A Yes. 10 Q Phil Pierce was one of them? 11 A Y
es. 12 Q And Mr. Pierce was involved in representing the 13 company for a trademark litigation; is that correct? 14 A I believe that's the nature of the case. 15 Q And you testified yesterday that there came a time 16 when Mr. Pierce gave Mr. Gordon certain advice, correct? 17 A Yes. 18 Q At the time, would it be a fair statement that 19 Mr. Pierce had been hired by Mr. Gordon in Who's Who for 20 his expertise in the area? 21 A Yes. 22 Q And would it also be a fair statement that at the 23 time Mr. Pierce gave the specific advice, and that had to 24 do with the wording in the letters -- 25 A Yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3930 Benjamin-cross/Wallenstein
1 MR. TRABULUS: Objection, your Honor. 2 THE COURT: I didn't hear the end of the
3 question.
4 MR. TRABULUS: I thought she began answer
ing it.
5 THE COURT: Did you complete your question?
6 MR. WALLENSTEIN: It is answerable in its present
7 form.
8 THE COURT: Is that your question?
9 MR. WALLENSTEIN: There is a follow up to it, but 10 I will ask that question. 11 THE COURT: Are you objecting to that question? 12 MR. TRABULUS: I am objecting to the question I 13 heard, yes. 14 THE COURT: Let me hear what you heard. 15 MR. WALLENSTEIN: I don't remember what I asked. 16 THE COURT: Mr. Reporter, please. 17 (Whereupon, the court reporter reads the 18 requested material.) 19 THE COURT: Sustained as to form. Strike the 20 answer. The jury is instructed to disregard it. 21 Q Mr. Pierce gave Mr. Gordon certain advice with 22 respect to wording to be used in the communication; is 23 that correct? 24 MR. TRABULUS: Objection. Foundation. 25 THE COURT: I don't recall,
but I know you
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3931 Benjamin-cross/Wallenstein
1 testified something about this yesterday, but were you 2 present when that occurred?
3 A When --
4 THE COURT: How did Mr. Pierce, the attorney give
5 advice to Mr. Gordon, in what way?
6 THE WITNESS: Just to fax any outgoing letters.
7 THE COURT: You were asked to fax Mr. Pierce a
8 copy of outgoing letters?
9 THE WITNESS: Yes. 10 THE COURT: For him to review the letters? 11 THE WITNESS: Exactly. 12 THE COURT: To approve the form and the words, 13 whatever? 14 THE WITNESS: Yes. 15 THE COURT: Mr. Pierce had his office outside of 16 Who's Who's offices? 17 THE WITNESS: That's correct. 18 THE COURT: So you faxed these letters. And what 19 happened after that? 20 THE WITNESS: Then he -- I don't reme
mber if it 21 was a phone call or refax, but he said that wording had to 22 be changed. 23 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, can we establish who 24 asked that it be faxed to Mr. Pierce? 25 THE COURT: Yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3932 Benjamin-cross/Wallenstein
1 THE WITNESS: Mr. Pierce. He was at a meeting in 2 the office and asked in the future any copies of letters
3 be faxed for his review.
4 THE COURT: And you did fax these letters?
5 THE WITNESS: Yes.
6 THE COURT: How did they come back to you, by
7 phone call?
8 THE WITNESS: I don't remember offhand if it was
9 by phone call or fax. 10 THE COURT: And Mr. Pierce made certain 11 statements? 12 THE WITNESS: Yes. 13 THE COURT: All right. 14 Q In fact, Mr. Pierce instructed you to word the 15 letters in a specific way; is
that correct? 16 A That's correct. 17 Q Did you then inform Mr. Gordon of what Mr. Pierce 18 said? 19 A Yes. 20 Q And Mr. Gordon's response was that the attorney is 21 not going to run my business, I will do it my way; is that 22 correct? 23 A Yes. 24 Q Is it fair to say that that statement summed up 25 Mr. Gordon's philosophy of the business? I will do it my
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3933 Benjamin-cross/Wallenstein
1 way? 2 MR. TRABULUS: Objection, your Honor.
3 THE COURT: Sustained.
4 Q You testified yesterday that sometime in the Spring
5 of 1994, you had a conversation with Liz Sautter with
6 respect to the logs?
7 A Uh-huh.
8 THE COURT: Yes?
9 THE WITNESS: Yes, I am sorry. 10 Q Can you be more specific, April, May, June? 11 A I am bad with dates. I can re
member by season pretty 12 much, but not by dates. 13 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, may we approach? 14 THE COURT: Come on up. 15 16 (Whereupon, at this time the following took place 17 at the sidebar.) 18 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, this was one of the 19 two hearsay objections which I made yesterday which your 20 Honor originally overruled, and then became the subject of 21 our -- my subsequent application after the jury went out. 22 And I thought this was included along with the Gaspar -- I 23 objected to this on the grounds of hearsay. 24 THE COURT: What are you talking about now? 25 MR. TRABULUS: The testimony by Liz Sautter, that
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3934 Benjamin-cross/Wallenstein
1 she was asked, or the company was to maintain some kind of 2 a file for the penthouse in Manhattan.
3 The te
stimony given by the witness is she recalls
4 this being in the Spring of 1994, although she was
5 terrible with the dates.
6 I objected on hearsay grounds before
7 Ms. Sautter's -- the substance of Ms. Sautter's statements
8 was related to the jury. Your Honor overruled the
9 objection. 10 After the jury left yesterday when I asked your 11 Honor to reconsider the hearsay objections, I included 12 that one as well as the testimony about Gaspar's 13 statement. 14 Once again, your Honor, in the absence of a 15 finding that there was a conspiracy and that it was in 16 furtherance of it, it should not be admissible. It would 17 not be admissible against the corporations, because the 18 logs relate only to the tax counts and obstruction counts 19 which the corporations are charged, your Honor. And it is 20 not admissible against Mr. Gordon. 21 In light of
the present state of the record, I 22 would object to a question concerning this conversation. 23 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, I think -- 24 THE COURT: What is going to happen here? What 25 is the conversation going to reveal?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3935 Benjamin-cross/Wallenstein
1 MR. WHITE: It was already revealed yesterday, 2 that Ms. Sautter --
3 THE COURT: Nothing new is coming out?
4 MR. WHITE: Today?
5 MR. WALLENSTEIN: I don't expect anything new to
6 come out. I expect to explore deeper into what happened.
7 THE COURT: What happened yesterday, refresh my
8 recollection?
9 MR. WHITE: The witness testified that 10 Ms. Sautter, the office manager told Ms. Benjamin that 11 she, Ms. Sautter, was keeping a log as to when people held 12 business meetings in the penthouse. And that if 13 Ms. Benj
amin in connection with her duties had meetings 14 there she should advise Ms. Sautter of that. 15 Now, the defendant's theory in cross-examining 16 Ms. Gaspar is that it was Ms. Gaspar's obligation to keep 17 those logs. And Mr. Trabulus' theory is when Ms. Gaspar 18 failed to do that, she on her own without informing Gordon 19 and Reffsin, created the log to cover up the dereliction 20 in her duties. 21 I think it may be admitted eventually as a 22 co-conspirator statement by Ms. Sautter. 23 You will recall that Ms. Sautter is involved in 24 other parts of the tax conspiracy. She is the one who 25 gave Mr. Gordon a supplemental card of her American
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3936 Benjamin-cross/Wallenstein
1 Express card assisting him in reporting that to the IRS. 2 Ms. Sautter is the one who told the other employees tha
t
3 they have to have a change in ownership, and we know
4 Mr. Gordon lied about the ownership of the company to the
5 IRS and to the bankruptcy court. Ms. Sautter is the one
6 who Dr. Grossman testified is the one who most likely
7 wrote the notes on those phony documents and instructed
8 him to sign them.
9 So, I think at a minimum since the jury already 10 heard it -- 11 THE COURT: Tell me again what this witness said 12 that Ms. Sautter said about the matter. 13 MR. WHITE: This witness says that in the Spring 14 of 1994, approximately, Ms. Sautter, who was the office 15 manager, told her, Debra Benjamin, this witness, that she, 16 Liz Sautter was keeping a log of business meetings at the 17 penthouse, and if Ms. Benjamin held such meetings, to tell 18 her, Liz. 19 THE COURT: That's what you are objecting to, 20 that testimony? 21 MR. TRA
BULUS: Yes. 22 THE COURT: I am overruling the objection, and I 23 will do it again. 24 I am not quite sure that because the counts 25 involving a specific charge, not to include the
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3937 Benjamin-cross/Wallenstein
1 corporation, would mean that the testimony of an employee 2 of the corporation would not come in. And I am not sure
3 about that. I am overruling the objection.
4 MR. TRABULUS: All right.
5
6 (Whereupon, at this time the following takes
7 place in open court.)
8 THE COURT: You may proceed.
9 Q Ms. Benjamin, you testified yesterday that you had 10 this conversation with Ms. Sautter in the Spring of '94 11 with respect to the logs, correct? 12 A Yes. 13 Q And what did she say? 14 A She just asked me to inform her if there was ever a 15 time t
hat I would be using the penthouse in Manhattan, to 16 let her know. 17 Q And she told you the reason was -- 18 A She was keeping a log and she was keeping the 19 information. 20 Q Bear with me, I know you know the answer to the 21 question, but let me finish the question first. 22 A Sorry. 23 Q Did she tell you the same thing with respect to the 24 Hummingbird Road condo? 25 A She didn't indicate either or. I just presumed it
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3938 Benjamin-cross/Wallenstein
1 was Manhattan. 2 Q So, she didn't say the penthouse in Manhattan?
3 A She just said if you need to use the apartment.
4 And I believe it was directed at Manhattan in
5 particular, in recollection.
6 Q The word she used was "Apartment"?
7 A Yes.
8 Q It is possible she could have been referring to
9 Hummingbird Road? 10 A It is possible. 11 Q It is possible she could have been referring to both; 12 is that correct? 13 A Yes. 14 Q And she told you she was keeping a log with respect 15 to the usage of the apartment; is that correct? 16 A Yes. 17 Q And did she tell you what information was to be 18 contained in the log? 19 A No. 20 Q Did she tell you to tell you if you used the 21 apartment for a meeting, that she needed to know who was 22 there and what the purpose of the meeting was? 23 A No, it wasn't a big conversation. Just if you need 24 to use the apartment, I need to know, because I have a 25 log.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3939 Benjamin-cross/Wallenstein
1 Q She indicated she was the person keeping that log; is 2 that correct?
3 A Yes.
4 Q She didn't tell y
ou to go to Maria Gaspar?
5 A No.
6 Q Do you know whether or not Ms. Gaspar had any
7 meetings with Mr. Reffsin and Mr. Gordon in 1994?
8 A Yes.
9 Q How many times did she have such meetings? 10 A That I wouldn't know. 11 Q Were you present at any of them? 12 A No. 13 Q You testified yesterday with respect to a 14 conversation you had with Maria Gaspar; is that correct? 15 A Correct. 16 Q And she had indicated she had come from a meeting 17 with Mr. Gordon and Mr. Reffsin? 18 MR. TRABULUS: Objection. 19 THE COURT: Overruled. 20 Q Is that correct? 21 A That's right. 22 Q Do you know if in fact there was such a meeting on 23 that day? 24 A Do I know there was a meeting? I know she was in the 25 office with Bruce and Mr. Reffsin.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3940 Benjami
n-cross/Wallenstein
1 Q You are certain the three of them were together in 2 the office on that day?
3 A Yeah.
4 Q Do you know what was discussed?
5 A No.
6 Q She didn't tell you what was discussed?
7 A No.
8 Q Mr. Reffsin didn't tell you what was discussed?
9 A No. 10 Q And Mr. Gordon didn't tell you either? 11 A No. 12 Q Wouldn't it be fair to say that Ms. Gaspar's meeting 13 with Mr. Gordon and Mr. Reffsin in the office was not an 14 unusual occurrence? 15 A No, it was not unusual. 16 MR. WALLENSTEIN: No further questions. 17 Thank you, Ms. Benjamin. 18 19 CROSS-EXAMINATION 20 BY MR. TRABULUS: 21 Q Good morning, Ms. Benjamin. 22 A Good morning. 23 Q The last day you worked for Who's Who Worldwide was 24 the day of the raid; is that correct? 25 A Yes, that's right.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3941 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 Q Suzanne Konopka who worked for you continued to work 2 after that as far as you know?
3 A Yes.
4 Q You understand she worked for no salary for a period
5 of time?
6 A Yes.
7 Q But you did not?
8 A I did not.
9 Q Now, after you worked for Who's Who Worldwide did you 10 have another job? 11 A Yes, I did. 12 Q And where was that first job you had? 13 A Communications Network Company in Manhattan. 14 Q Subsequently did you hire some people who were 15 working for Who's Who who -- to work there? 16 A Yes. 17 Q What did you start out within that firm? 18 A Office manager. 19 Q And did you rise up within the firm? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Did you rise up relatively quickly? 22 A Relatively quickly. 23 Q What position
did you reach? 24 A It was called a vice presidency, but it really 25 wasn't.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3942 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 Q Now, let me ask you, you testified here that you 2 worked for Who's Who Worldwide a period of, it was about
3 three and a half years?
4 A I guess it would be two and a half.
5 Q Two and a half years?
6 A Yes.
7 Q And isn't it correct that during the time you worked
8 at Who's Who Worldwide, you did not believe that you were
9 committing any crime? 10 A Absolutely. 11 Q That's correct? 12 A That's correct. 13 Q Indeed, when agents -- when postal inspectors came 14 you initially spoke to them without any attorney present; 15 is that correct? 16 A That's correct. 17 Q And that's because you felt no crime was done by you 18 there; is tha
t correct? 19 A Of course. 20 Q As you sit here today, you believe that you committed 21 no crime? 22 A Absolutely. 23 Q And you were involved in arranging for mailings with 24 mailing lists; is that correct? 25 A That's correct.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3943 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 Q And mailings to people who were going to get 2 solicitation letters that said they were nominated; is
3 that correct?
4 A That's correct.
5 Q And you knew the people's names came from mailing
6 lists; is that correct?
7 A Yes.
8 Q And you knew the solicitation letter would say
9 "nominated", correct? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Is it also correct that none of the solicitation 12 letters ever told any member -- withdrawn. 13 Is that correct that none of the solicitation 14 letters actually
said that the recipient had been 15 nominated by another member of Who's Who Worldwide? That 16 though always left open another possibility? 17 A To the best of my recollection, yes. 18 Q Were you familiar with the contents of the sales 19 presentations or scripts or pitches as they have been 20 referred to? 21 A No, just from what I would overhear. 22 Q Do you know as a matter of fact not a single one of 23 those sales presentations or scripts written by 24 Mr. Gordon, say that the person being spoken to says that 25 they were nominate by another member?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3944 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 A I wouldn't have knowledge of that. 2 Q You wouldn't know that one way or another?
3 A No.
4 Q Going to the company you worked for afterward, the
5 communications company, did that company subseq
uently come
6 into some kind of trouble with the law?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Can you tell me, that trouble with the law had
9 absolutely nothing to do with Who's Who Worldwide, did it? 10 A Nothing at all. 11 Q It had absolutely nothing to do with Mr. Gordon; is 12 that correct? 13 A Nothing at all. 14 Q Nothing at all to do with Sterling, is that correct? 15 A Nothing at all. 16 Q The person who hired you, was he the head of that 17 company? 18 A No, he was not. 19 Q Did you have any contact with the head of the company 20 while you were working there? 21 A Of course, yes. 22 Q Did the head of the company subsequently go to jail? 23 A No. 24 Q Did the head of the company subsequently get 25 criminally charged?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3945 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 MR
. WHITE: Objection, your Honor. 2 THE COURT: Sustained.
3 A I wouldn't know.
4 THE COURT: Don't answer the question.
5 Q Did you begin working in cooperation with the
6 government in the investigation of the other company you
7 were working for?
8 A I don't understand the question.
9 Q Were you ever interviewed by any agent of the 10 government concerning the operations of the company you 11 went to work for after you left Who's Who Worldwide? 12 A Yes. 13 Q And -- 14 THE COURT: Can we get the name of that company? 15 THE WITNESS: Communications Network. 16 THE COURT: The name of the company is 17 Communications Network? 18 THE WITNESS: Communications Network, Inc. 19 THE COURT: Company? 20 THE WITNESS: Communications Network, Inc. 21 THE COURT: All right. 22 Q Were you yourself ever charged with a crime there? 23
A No. 24 Q Were you yourself ever told that you might be a 25 target and charged with a crime in connection with that?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3946 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 A No. 2 Q Were you yourself told that you might be under
3 investigation?
4 A Yes, at that point, yes.
5 Q Now, when you testified in the grand jury in this
6 case -- withdrawn.
7 Did you ever testify at any grand jury concerning
8 Communications Network, whatever the name of that company
9 was, the other company? 10 A No. 11 Q And when you testified in the grand jury concerning 12 this case, Who's Who Worldwide you were told you had some 13 immunity; is that correct? That you were going to be 14 given some kind of immunity; is that correct? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Were also told that your immunity was limited to your
17 employment at Who's Who Worldwide, or words to that 18 effect? Do you recall that? 19 A Yes. 20 Q And were you told to confine your answers to 21 questions relating to Who's Who Worldwide, between the 22 period you first began to work there in August or 23 September 1992, up until the point of time that you let in 24 March of 1995? 25 A I am not sure that I understand the question.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3947 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 Q Sure. 2 MR. JENKS: Norman, slow down.
3 MR. TRABULUS: Thank you.
4 Q Do you remember testifying before the grand jury in
5 Brooklyn on March 5th, 1997?
6 A Yes.
7 Q And the person who questioned you there was
8 Mr. White; is that correct?
9 A That's correct. 10 Q Do you recall Mr. White advising you that you would 11 be receiving immu
nity for your testimony that day? 12 A Yes. 13 Q Indeed, after that you went outside to speak to your 14 attorney to have a further discussion with him, just to 15 the make sure you understood the nature of immunity; is 16 that correct? 17 A That's correct. 18 Q And then you came back into the grand jury room; is 19 that correct? 20 A That's correct. 21 Q And after that do you recall Mr. White asking you 22 this question, or this series of questions and you giving 23 this series of answers, and referring to 24 Government's Exhibit 7-A, among the 3500 material, at page 25 4, beginning at line 4.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3948 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 Question: All right. Let me also say at the 2 outset here that my questions today are just solely
3 related to your employment at Who's Who Worldwi
de, and
4 they only relate to the time period that you were employed
5 there, which, I think, was from approximately 1992 to
6 March of '95.
7 Answer -- you speaking, yes, about that. No,
8 March of 1992?
9 Question: From a time in '92, to March of '95. 10 Answer: Yes, I guess it was about that question, 11 again, Mr. White speaking, so you can construe my 12 questions just to the refer to at that time period and 13 confine your answers to just what is relevant in that time 14 period, okay? 15 Answer: Yes. 16 Do you recall being given those questions and 17 giving those answers? 18 A Yes. 19 Q And before going into the grand jury room was it 20 explained to you that the immunity you would get would 21 only relate to answers that you gave to questions that 22 were put to you in the grand jury room? 23 A I don't understand. 2
4 Q Was it explained that you would get immunity, and 25 that the testimony you gave in the grand jury couldn't be
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3949 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 used against you? Was that explained to you? 2 A Yes.
3 Q Was it explained to you further that you just
4 couldn't blurt out something else that was not in response
5 to a question by Mr. White and get immunity from that just
6 by virtue of having said it?
7 A I do understand what you are asking.
8 Q Well, you didn't understand, did you, that when you
9 went into the grand jury room, you could write yourself a 10 blank check of immunity on anything you might have done 11 which might have been the subject of criminal charges, did 12 you? 13 A I still am not comprehending what you are asking. 14 Q Did Mr. White before you went into the grand jury
15 room tell you that there were certain things he wasn't 16 going to be asking you about? 17 A No. 18 Q Did Mr. White tell you that there were certain things 19 he wasn't going to be asking you about with regard to this 20 other company that you worked for that was in trouble? 21 A No. There was no discussion about that. 22 Q Did Mr. White tell you that you weren't supposed to 23 say anything about that other company that was under 24 investigation? 25 A No.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3950 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 Q At that point in time you had already spoken to the 2 agents concerning that other company, had you not?
3 A I believe I had.
4 Q Did your lawyer tell you that you shouldn't say
5 anything about that other company?
6 A No.
7 Q Yesterday you were asked certain questions con
cerning
8 a company called Transnational; is that correct?
9 A Yes. 10 Q And through Transnational Who's Who Worldwide 11 obtained discounts for its members on Airborne Express; is 12 that right? 13 A That's correct. 14 Q And Who's Who Worldwide also obtained discounts for 15 its members on automobile insurance; is that right? 16 A That's correct. 17 Q And you were asked to look at contracts entered into 18 between Who's Who Worldwide and Transnational; is that 19 correct? 20 A That's correct. 21 Q And you were asked by Mr. White about the fact that 22 Who's Who Worldwide received under certain circumstances 23 one percent or two percent of the monies that were paid by 24 its members to these companies; is that correct? 25 A Yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3951 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 Q Now, under these contracts -- withdrawn. 2 Transnational, as you understand it is a separate
3 company from Airborne Express; is that correct?
4 A Yes.
5 Q And Transnational is a separate company from the
6 automobile insurance companies; is it not?
7 A Yes.
8 Q And you were also asked questions about telephone
9 usage. Was it also through Transnational? 10 A Yes. 11 Q And Transnational was completely separate from all 12 these companies who gave discounted services to the 13 members of Who's Who Worldwide? 14 A To my understanding. 15 Q Transnational is a business? 16 A Yes. 17 Q In business to make money? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Just like Who's Who Worldwide was? 20 A Yes. 21 Q And do the contracts say that Who's Who Worldwide is 22 to pay Transnational anything for its services? 23 A No. 24 Q Do you b
elieve that Transnational was providing these 25 services and acting as a broker perhaps for Airborne
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3952 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 Express and other companies, do you have reason to believe 2 that Transnational was doing this for free?
3 A No.
4 Q And is it fair that Transnational was being paid by
5 Airborne Freight or the insurance company, whoever it was
6 brokering for, for Transnational to have obtained the
7 Who's Who account for them?
8 A I would feel so.
9 Q Did Who's Who Worldwide inquire of Transnational as 10 to how much it was being paid by Airborne Freight, how 11 much Transnational was being made by Airborne Freight? 12 A No. 13 Q Or the insurance company? 14 A No. 15 Q Or by Sprint? 16 A No. 17 Q Who's Who Worldwide didn't care? 18 A N
o. 19 Q Is that fair to say? 20 A Very fair. 21 Q Who's Who Worldwide was not disturbed that 22 Transnational was concealing from it the fact that it was 23 obtaining money from Airborne Freight, was it? 24 MR. WHITE: Objection, concealing. 25 THE COURT: Overruled.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3953 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 A Concealing? I don't think it was an issue. 2 Q Now, did any members -- withdrawn.
3 In the course of your work at Who's Who Worldwide
4 did you have occasion to speak to members on the
5 telephone?
6 A On occasion, yes.
7 Q Did you ever have occasion to hear from other
8 employees who worked with you or for you about
9 conversations that they had with members on the telephone? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Did any of the members -- withdrawn. 12 Did any member ever ask you
as to whether Who's 13 Who Worldwide was getting something about providing the 14 Airborne Freight discounted service. 15 MR. WHITE: Objection. 16 THE COURT: Overruled. 17 A I don't recall anyone asking. 18 Q Did you ever hear that any member of Who's Who 19 Worldwide was upset at the prospect that Who's Who 20 Worldwide might be getting one or two percent, and that 21 their discount should have been 42 percent or 41 percent 22 instead of 40 percent? 23 A No. I never heard anything like that. 24 Q Is it fair to say as far as you can tell no member of 25 Who's Who Worldwide cared?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3954 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 A Yeah. 2 Q Is it also fair to say that the arrangement that
3 Who's Who Worldwide had with Transnational was mutually
4 beneficial to the members as well as to W
ho's Who
5 Worldwide; is that correct?
6 A Yes.
7 Q The members got a substantial discount over what they
8 would have had to pay. And Who's Who Worldwide got a
9 small percentage of that money; is that right? 10 A That's correct. 11 Q And the language deleted -- withdrawn. 12 You were shown some scripts yesterday; is that 13 correct? 14 A Yes. 15 Q And those were scripts prepared by Transnational; is 16 that correct? 17 A Yes. 18 Q And Transnational was a company whose business 19 involved speaking to people by telephone; is that correct? 20 A That's correct. 21 Q And they had people there who were especially -- 22 whose job it was to talk to people by telephone; is that 23 correct? 24 A That's correct. 25 Q And Transnational, as far as you understood it,
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORT
ER 3955 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 prepared scripts for those people -- for the people who 2 spoke to the people on the telephone, correct?
3 A Correct.
4 Q The scripts had various things to say, correct?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Sometimes they would have different alternatives
7 depending on what the person being spoken to responded?
8 THE COURT: You have to slow down, Mr. Trabulus.
9 MR. TRABULUS: Sorry. 10 THE COURT: Do you want to repeat that question, 11 please? 12 MR. TRABULUS: Yes. I will get a drink of 13 water. 14 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the 15 proceedings.) 16 Q Let me just go back a second. 17 Is it fair to say that insofar as you were 18 concerned, there was absolutely nothing wrong with Who's 19 Who Worldwide receiving money from Airborne Freight -- 20 withdrawn -- from Transnational, in con
nection with the 21 services that it brokered for members? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Now, Transnational provided scripts for Who's Who 24 Worldwide to review; is that correct? 25 A Correct.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3956 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 Q And those scripts were scripts which Transnational 2 prepared for its employees to use, correct?
3 A Correct.
4 Q And basically, those employees were telemarketers; is
5 that correct?
6 A I imagine, yes.
7 Q And they would talk to people on the telephone and
8 try to sell them on the idea of getting into one of these
9 discount programs? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Is that what was understood? 12 A Uh-huh. 13 Q Now, there was some language deleted from the 14 scripts; is that correct? 15 A Correct. 16 Q And that language suggested that the
re would be a 17 donation to Who's Who Worldwide based upon the usage of 18 these discounted programs; is that correct? 19 A That's correct. 20 Q Or the monies would be a contribution to Who's Who 21 Worldwide, correct? 22 A That's correct. 23 Q To help it meets its goals and objectives; is that 24 correct? 25 A Correct.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3957 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 Q And is it your understanding that that type of 2 language is normally included where the company, the
3 company involved, or the entity involved, providing the
4 benefit to members, is a charity?
5 A That's correct.
6 Q And the idea is you want to let the people know they
7 are helping their clarity every time they send something
8 by Airborne Freight?
9 A That's right. 10 Q That would not apply to Who'
s Who Worldwide, would 11 it? 12 A No. 13 Q And Who's Who Worldwide was a money making business? 14 A Absolutely. 15 Q Now, the scripts that were provided by Transnational, 16 they provided that the people who spoke over the telephone 17 to Who's Who Worldwide members and called them up, 18 inquiring about the discount programs, they provided that 19 those people, the telemarketers at Transnational, would 20 say certain things; is that correct? 21 A That's correct. 22 Q They contained sometimes different alternatives 23 depending on what the person on the other end of the 24 telephone said; is that correct? 25 A Correct.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3958 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 Q They contained things called closes; is that correct? 2 A Yes.
3 Q That's a kind of common term in the sales
business,
4 correct?
5 A Yes.
6 Q That's a line you use either to close a deal or to
7 close a conversation; is that correct?
8 A Yes.
9 Q And they provided with a list of possible answers 10 that could be given in the event that a question was asked 11 by somebody who was being spoken to on the phone; is that 12 correct? 13 A Correct. 14 Q Now, there is nothing, as you understand it, there is 15 nothing wrong with doing that, is there, with having such 16 a script? 17 A I can't understand anything wrong with it. 18 Q Indeed, it helps insure accuracy on the part of the 19 people who are on the telephone, does it not? 20 A It does. 21 Q It insures consistency? 22 A Yes. 23 Q And it is something that should be done in every 24 business in which sales methods involve telephone sales; 25 is that correct?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3959 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 A I don't know if I can make a blanket statement like 2 that. But I would say for consistency purposes, yes, if
3 there is a lot of points to be making.
4 Q If there are a lot of points and a lot of people
5 speaking over the telephone?
6 A Correct.
7 Q As opposed to one person selling things over the
8 telephone and has complete control of what he or her is
9 saying? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Now, is it correct that about a week or so before the 12 raid, the raid which resulted in your leaving Who's Who 13 Worldwide, there was a visit paid to the offices of 14 Sterling -- was it Sterling -- by Inspector Biegelman, or 15 was it the Lake Success office? 16 A No, it was the Sterling offices. 17 Q Were you there at the time? 18 A Yes. 19 Q And was M
r. Gordon there at the time? 20 A Yes, he was. 21 Q Mr. Biegelman did not tell you or Mr. Gordon that he 22 had any complaint with the business of Who's Who Worldwide 23 or Sterling, did he? 24 A Not at all. 25 Q Who did he speak to first, to you or to Mr. Gordon?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3960 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 A Mr. Gordon asked me to initiate the phone call to 2 Mr. Biegelman.
3 Q Mr. Gordon asked you himself to call Inspector
4 Biegelman?
5 A That's right.
6 Q What was the purpose of the phone call to Inspector
7 Biegelman?
8 A It was twofold at that point. We had an employee who
9 had left and was diverting members' money to his home 10 saying he was a clearing house for Who's Who. 11 Q Is that Joe Parks? 12 A Yes, it was. 13 Q Continue. 14 A There was als
o another Who's Who that had come about, 15 and Mr. Gordon had some concerns about that. 16 Q There was another Who's Who that had come about, and 17 Mr. Gordon had concerns that that Who's Who was giving 18 other Who's Whos, including his own, a bad name? 19 A That's correct. 20 Q And people might confuse what this other Who's Who 21 was doing with what his own business was doing; is that 22 correct? 23 A That is correct. 24 Q And blame on his business things that this other 25 Who's Who was doing, correct?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3961 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 A That's correct. 2 Q Is it the purpose of inviting a postal inspector
3 there was to explain that to the postal inspector; is that
4 correct?
5 A That's correct.
6 Q And Inspector Biegelman showed up; is that correct?
7 A Ins
pector Biegelman and Inspector Pagano.
8 Q And did Mr. Gordon speak to them?
9 A Absolutely. 10 Q Did you speak to them? 11 A Yes. 12 Q Did Mr. Gordon talk about his own business? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Did he talk about their business -- excuse me, the 15 other businesses that he was complaining about? 16 A Yes. 17 Q And did Mr. Gordon show them around the facilities? 18 A Yes, he did. 19 Q Did he compare and contrast his business with what he 20 was complaining about in the other businesses? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Before these people came there to look around -- to 23 the telephone call, Mr. Gordon did not take anything off 24 the walls, did he? 25 A Not that I am aware of.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3962 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 Q He didn't warn the salespeople that they had been on
2 their best behavior, did he?
3 A I wouldn't know that.
4 Q As far as you know nothing like that was done. It
5 was simply a request that people from the government, law
6 enforcement people come, because Mr. Gordon had a
7 complaint to them -- made to the law enforcement people
8 about what other people were doing, doing something wrong;
9 is that correct? 10 A That's correct. 11 Q Now, you testified yesterday concerning nomination 12 ballots; is that correct? 13 A Yes. 14 Q And nomination ballots were ballots which were cards 15 that were sent in by members; is that correct? 16 A That's correct. 17 Q And on those cards they could list other people, who 18 they were proposing for membership in Who's Who Worldwide 19 or Sterling; is that right? 20 A That is correct. 21 Q And they would list the name of the person and 22 perhaps t
heir business or phone number; is that correct? 23 A Correct. 24 Q And is it fair to say that before a nomination card 25 came in, Who's Who Worldwide would have no other
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3963 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 information, or even be aware of the existence of the 2 person on the nomination card, unless, perhaps, that
3 person happened to be on one of the mailing lists?
4 A That would be fair to say.
5 Q The mailing lists, which you were involved in
6 renting, they did not contain phone numbers, did they?
7 A No.
8 Q They contained names, addresses and titles and
9 information of that sort; is that correct? 10 A Yes. 11 Q And the mailing lists themselves, we call it mailing 12 lists, but they really weren't pieces of paper, were they? 13 A No, they were tapes. 14 Q When you say
tapes, they were computer tapes? 15 A Yes, uh-huh. 16 Q They weren't physically on the premises of Who's Who 17 Worldwide? 18 A Prior to the mailing? 19 Q That's right. 20 A No. In some cases they were, if they were sent to 21 our office just to hold. We had no way of reading them. 22 Q Okay. 23 But if they were physically on the premises, you 24 have no way of reading them, they were just being 25 physically held there; is that correct?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3964 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 A Yes, uh-huh. 2 Q It would be the mailing company, or the mailing
3 houses that would read them; is that correct?
4 A That's correct.
5 Q And they would generate a set of labels, or whatever,
6 and so forth, and send the mail; is that correct?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Now, are you familiar with the
procedures that were
9 utilized by the sales personnel in contacting a 10 prospective member whose name had been obtained from a 11 nomination ballot? 12 A The procedure used? 13 Q Yes. 14 A They were giving them out as lead cards. 15 Q So, in that event, the salesperson would call the 16 person whose name was on the nomination ballot; is that 17 correct? 18 A That's correct. 19 Q Is it the person who would be called would not 20 previously have received anything in writing from Who's 21 Who Worldwide; is that correct? 22 A Unless they were on a mailing list. 23 Q Unless they also happened to be on a mailing list? 24 A Yes. 25 Q Is that correct?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3965 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 A That's correct. 2 Q And is it fair to say that if somebody received a
3 telephone call first before receiving anything in writing
4 from Who's Who Worldwide, it is fair to say that that
5 person would be somebody whose name had come from a
6 nomination ballot?
7 A That would be fair.
8 Q Now, you have seen lead cards, have you not?
9 A Yes. 10 Q And you were shown some yesterday; is that correct? 11 A Uh-huh. 12 Q Mr. White showed them to you; is that correct? 13 A Uh-huh. 14 Q And they had little codes on them; is that correct? 15 A Uh-huh, yes. 16 Q And the ones you saw were filled out with somebody's 17 name on them; is that correct? 18 A Yes. 19 Q And had you ever seen some that were blank? 20 A Yes. 21 Q In fact, were there not blank leads cards maintained 22 on the premises of Who's Who Worldwide? 23 A Yes. 24 Q And was one of the things that Mr. Gordon asked you 25 to do,
was to have the people working for you to go
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3966 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 through various publications, the Wall Street Journal, and 2 things of that sort and see the names of people who had
3 been promoted?
4 A Yes.
5 Q And those people would sometimes be sent a
6 solicitation letter and a lead card; is that correct?
7 A Yes. In a few cases, yes.
8 Q And those lead cards -- withdrawn.
9 When the lead cards were printed up, they were 10 all printed up with some sort of code on them; is that 11 correct? 12 A Yes. 13 Q You never saw a lead cards that was blank in terms of 14 not having any code? 15 A There may have been one that we had that didn't have 16 a code on it. 17 Q There may have been, but you are not certain? 18 A Not certain. 19 Q And the le
ad cards sent out to these people who were 20 nominated -- withdrawn. 21 Who were selected from publications or trade 22 journals or whatever, they may have had codes on them? 23 A They may have. 24 Q You are not sure? 25 A I am not 100 percent sure.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3967 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 Q Basically there would be a certain percent of blank 2 lead cards that would be obtained from the company that
3 printed them, that would be kept in-house; is that
4 correct?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Now, do you know whether or not after the salespeople
7 contacted somebody whose name had come from a nomination
8 ballot or whose phone number came from a nomination
9 ballot, after making that initial phone call, do you know 10 after that if a letter and a lead card would sometimes be 11 sent to one of tho
se people? 12 A I don't understand what you are asking. In other 13 words -- 14 Q I will withdraw the question and rephrase it. 15 We are talking now about a situation, in which we 16 have a prospective member who has been nominated, okay? 17 A Uh-huh. 18 Q Are you with me? 19 A Yes, I am with you. 20 Q And that person's phone number has been derived from 21 a nomination ballot, correct? 22 A Yes. 23 Q A salesperson calls that person up and speaks to them 24 concerning Who's Who Worldwide. 25 A Yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3968 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 Q And that person has not previously received anything 2 in writing from Who's Who Worldwide; is that correct?
3 A Yes.
4 Q And are you aware whether in such a situation, after
5 an indication of interest from that person, a l
etter and
6 leader card would have been sent to the person nominated
7 on the nomination ballot?
8 A I don't believe so.
9 Q Do you know for a fact one way or the other? 10 A Do I know for a fact one way or another? No, I 11 wouldn't -- 12 Q Would that be something within your department? 13 A I would presume it would be. 14 Q It would be? Not something within administration? 15 A It may have been at that point. I don't know how 16 that was handled. 17 Q Okay. 18 So, if we had a situation in which a prospective 19 member was first contacted by telephone and only 20 afterwards received the lead card, would that suggest to 21 you that that person had actually been nominated, and then 22 after a conversation with a telephone -- withdrawn. 23 Would that suggest to you that that person's name 24 had actually come from a nomination ballot, and aft
er an 25 initial telephone call, a blank lead card was mailed to
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3969 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 that person? 2 MR. WHITE: Objection.
3 THE COURT: Sustained.
4 Q Now, I think yesterday you testified about a trip
5 that had been proposed and planned for to Vietnam and Hong
6 Kong?
7 A That's correct.
8 Q And the name of the company through which this was to
9 be done was a company owned by a man named Paul Elmstrom? 10 A That's correct. 11 MR. TRABULUS: Do you have Exhibit 41-E, I 12 believe? 13 MR. WHITE: What was it? 14 (Counsel confer.) 15 Q While they are looking for that, let me ask you, you 16 say there were 50,000 brochures made available from -- 17 A It was a large quantity of brochures. 18 Q Was this, these brochures with the name Who's Who on
19 them? 20 A Yes. 21 Q These were provided you say free of charge by the 22 company putting together the tour? 23 A Yes. 24 Q 50,000 brochures? 25 A I am not sure of the quantity. It was a large
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3970 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 quantity they provided. 2 Q And there was no charge at all for the 50,000
3 brochures; is that correct?
4 A Yes.
5 Q You say Mr. Gordon didn't want to have a separate
6 mailing for these brochures because of the cost; is that
7 correct?
8 A There was a big cost.
9 Q Postage cost? 10 A Yes. 11 Q There were mailings made in new member packets; is 12 that correct? 13 A Yes. 14 Q And is it also not the case that the salespeople were 15 directed to call up existing members and advise them of 16 them?
17 A I would have no knowledge. 18 Q You would have no way to know, one way or the other? 19 A No. 20 Q The cost of mailing approximately 50,000 brochures, 21 would that be approximately $20,000 at bulk mailing rates? 22 A Somewhere around there. 23 Q Now, I am going to show you what I believe is not in 24 evidence, but for identification as 41-E. 25 (Handed to the witness.)
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3971 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 Q Do you recognize it? 2 A Yes.
3 Q Take a look at the other side, too? The back of it.
4 You can take it out of the sheet. It is one sheet, I
5 believe. And look at it carefully.
6 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the
7 proceedings.)
8 Q Do you recognize 41-E?
9 A Yes, I do. 10 Q What is 41-E. 11 A It was a membership update, p
rograms and services 12 that were coming up or events that were going to be 13 happening. 14 Q When you say it went out to the members, to which 15 members did it go out? 16 A Who's Who Worldwide members. 17 Q All of them? 18 A I believe it did. 19 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, I don't believe it is 20 in evidence at this point. I offer it in evidence. 21 THE COURT: I object? 22 MR. GEDULDIG: Can I see it, Judge? 23 MR. SCHOER: Norman, it is in evidence as 24 Defendant's Exhibit J. J is in evidence. It is the same 25 thing.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3972 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, I am informed it is in 2 evidence as Defendant's Exhibit J. I was not aware of
3 that.
4 THE COURT: There is a J, for Jack, in evidence.
5 I don't know what it is. I have a list o
f benefits, in my
6 unofficial list.
7 MR. TRABULUS: It appears to be a photocopy of
8 this.
9 THE COURT: If it is in as J for Jack, you don't 10 need it, right? 11 MR. TRABULUS: I don't need it. 12 THE COURT: As 41-E, for Easy, you don't need 13 it. 14 MR. GEDULDIG: Judge, I am going to make a 15 request. It is in as Defendant's Exhibit J. It is also 16 marked as a Government's Exhibit, 41-E. As a packet 17 relating to the witness Spencer who testified earlier, 18 your Honor, that's how it is indicated. If it is going to 19 go in evidence, I would move to have the document marked 20 jointly Defendant's Exhibit J, Government's Exhibit 41-E. 21 THE COURT: You want it in as 41-E, as well as 22 under J, is that correct? 23 MR. GEDULDIG: Correct. 24 THE COURT: Any objection? 25 MR. WHITE: No, except Mr. Spencer testified he
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3973 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 didn't recall seeing this. But I have no objection to its 2 admission.
3 THE COURT: All right. Government's Exhibit 41-E
4 in evidence.
5 (Government's Exhibit 41-E received in evidence.)
6 Q Now, Ms. Benjamin, I am going to be showing you
7 this. And this document lists various upcoming events and
8 offers to members; is that correct?
9 A That's correct. 10 Q And this was sent out before the events that were 11 listed in it were to occur? 12 A That's correct. 13 Q I would like you to read to the jury the portion that 14 says Who's Who Worldwide business conferences, that 15 paragraph. 16 A The first Who's Who Worldwide business conference is 17 departing Los Angeles -- 18 THE COURT: You have to go slower, much slower. 19 THE WITNESS
: I am sorry. 20 You got it to Los Angeles? 21 THE COURT: It never fails, everybody who 22 reads -- 23 JUROR NO. 4: Except me. 24 THE COURT: Except me. 25 Reads faster than they speak.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3974 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 Ms. Benjamin speaks in a very modulated and easy 2 to hear tone. But when she reads she accelerates. Now, I
3 am going to do a study on that, as I said, after I retire.
4 However, since I do not intend to ever retire,
5 and I am appointed for life, I don't know when I am going
6 to do this study.
7 You may proceed.
8 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
9 On December 28th, for Hong Kong and Vietnam. 10 Enjoy deluxe accommodations, fine dining and informative 11 business meetings, all for $3,285 per person. 12 Q Thank you. 13 A Do you want me to finish t
he paragraph? 14 Q Yes. 15 A All right. 16 Due to the special reduced price this conference 17 is for Who's Who Worldwide members and their guests only. 18 Q Now, that went out to all Who's Who Worldwide members 19 at the time, as far as you know; is that correct? 20 A As far as I know, yes. 21 Q And so, when Mr. Gordon rejected the idea of a 22 separate 20,000 mailing of brochures that were furnished 23 by the company, there already was a mailing announcing 24 this program to people, correct? 25 A I imagine, yeah, at that time.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3975 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 Q And it wasn't that he didn't want people not to know 2 about it?
3 A Oh, no.
4 Q Far from it. Is that correct that he expressed to
5 you his desire that people go on this?
6 A Absolutely.
7 Q No
w, at the time that that was sent out to the
8 members, is it fair to say that everything in there
9 concerning that Vietnam and Hong Kong trip was true? 10 A Yes. 11 Q It was being planned exactly as it is being shown 12 here; is that correct? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Now, this particular trip -- withdrawn. 15 There is an 800 number there, is there not, 16 listed in connection with that? 17 A Yes. 18 Q And that 800 number is not an 800 number at Who's Who 19 Worldwide, was it? 20 A No. 21 Q It was at Mr. Elmstrom's company? 22 A Mr. Elmstrom's tour operating office. 23 Q Is it fair to say that all the arrangements to be 24 made by any member who wanted to go on this would have to 25 be made through Mr. Elmstrom's company?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3976 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 A That's
correct. 2 Q Is it the payment would go to Mr. Elmstrom's company;
3 is that correct?
4 A That's correct.
5 Q And this was different from the Hilton Head
6 conference in that it was a piggyback; is that correct?
7 A Yes. That's correct.
8 Q And the trip -- the seminar was going to occur
9 regardless of whether anybody from Who's Who Worldwide 10 went along on this; is that correct? 11 A That's correct. 12 THE COURT: Which one are you referring to? 13 MR. TRABULUS: The Vietnam and Hong Kong trip. 14 THE COURT: Ms. Benjamin, in this notice it 15 says: Is departing Los Angeles on December 28th. Do you 16 know what year that was? 17 THE WITNESS: I believe that was '93. I am not 18 100 percent -- I am terrible with dates. 19 THE COURT: Your best recollection is that it was 20 1993? 21 THE WITNESS: I would think so, yes. 22 THE
COURT: All right. 23 Q This trip was going to occur regardless of whether 24 anybody from Who's Who Worldwide went along, so long as 25 the American Bar Association didn't cancel it; is that
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3977 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 correct? 2 A That's correct.
3 Q And is it your understanding that the American Bar
4 Association trip did occur?
5 A Yes.
6 Q So, the plane did leave to go to the conference; is
7 that correct?
8 A As far as I know.
9 Q Now, this was a benefit that was offered to the 10 members, was it not? 11 A Yes. 12 Q And it is true that the benefit was provided, 13 correct? 14 A It was offered. 15 Q It was actually provided, but just that the members 16 did not avail themselves of that? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Was the purpose to orient
members of Who's Who 19 Worldwide on the local laws of the countries being 20 visited, to meet with officials of the country? Were 21 those among the purposes? 22 A Yes. 23 Q And to facilitate import and export type dealings 24 between members -- between these countries? 25 A Yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3978 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 Q It was a business type trip more than a vacation type 2 trip that was being planned?
3 A Yes.
4 Q And it was arranged by and on behalf of Who's Who
5 Worldwide; is that correct?
6 A Yes.
7 Q And as far as you know -- withdrawn.
8 I believe you testified that if more than a
9 certain number of people from Who's Who Worldwide signed 10 up, Who's Who Worldwide could have received a free trip 11 from one of its staff people; is that correct? 12 A
Yes. 13 Q Who could have been able to accompany the members; is 14 that correct? 15 A Yes. 16 Q And if -- I suppose if double the amount would have 17 signed up perhaps two free trips would have been obtained, 18 something like that? 19 A Yes. 20 Q And is it also correct that because of the piggyback 21 nature of this, there was no minimum number of Who's Who 22 Worldwide people who had to seen up to go? 23 A Minimum number? 24 Q There was no minimum number. If only one Who's Who 25 Worldwide person signed up they would have been able to
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3979 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 go; is that correct? 2 A I imagine they could have, yes.
3 Q And in that event Who's Who Worldwide would not have
4 obtained a free trip; is that correct?
5 A I don't remember what the breakdown w
as for the free
6 trips.
7 Q Certainly, Who's Who Worldwide was not going to be
8 given a three $3,200 trip to Vietnam and Hong Kong simply
9 because one of its members signed up for a $3,200 trip? 10 A Yes. 11 Q So, in terms of -- as you sit here today, do you in 12 fact know that none of the people -- withdrawn. 13 As you sit here today you know that Who's Who 14 Worldwide was not given a free trip; is that correct? 15 A That's correct. 16 Q And as you sit here today, do you in fact know 17 whether some member of Who's Who Worldwide members, be it 18 one, two or three, less than the number required to 19 establish the free trip went on this trip? Do you know 20 for a fact? 21 A Well, Mr. Elmstrom told me nobody from Who's Who 22 Worldwide signed up. 23 Q When was that? 24 A Right before -- 25 Q There was no deadline, somebody coul
d have signed up
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3980 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 right before; is that correct? 2 A I don't know. There were visas and things like that
3 involved.
4 Q Is it not true that as far as Who's Who Worldwide had
5 done, it had done everything that it could to facilitate
6 members going on this trip?
7 A Yes.
8 Q It had provided the benefit; is that correct?
9 A Yes. 10 Q And the members did not avail themselves of it, 11 correct? 12 A Correct. 13 Q Now, when you were first hired at Who's Who 14 Worldwide, is it fair to say that dealing with the mailing 15 lists was not your principal responsibility? 16 A Correct. 17 Q In fact, you were hired specifically to run the 18 member benefit programs; is that correct? 19 A Yes. 20 Q And I think you testified
yesterday that when you 21 first began working there, the benefits were limited; is 22 that correct? 23 A Correct. 24 Q You were hired because Mr. Gordon had decided that 25 there were going to be more benefits, and they were going
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3981 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 to be expanding, and he needed somebody to be in charge of 2 that; is that correct?
3 A Correct.
4 Q So, it was his idea to expand the benefits over what
5 they were at the point when you were hired rather than
6 your idea; is that correct?
7 A It was mutual in terms of taking on more of an
8 association type persona.
9 Q Is it your testimony that before you were at Who's 10 Who Worldwide, there was simply a publishing company which 11 published a book rather than a membership organization? 12 A To my perception
? 13 Q Well, no, not your perception. 14 Before you began working at Who's Who Worldwide, 15 was Who's Who Worldwide a membership organization, as far 16 as you know? 17 A I don't really know if it was a membership 18 organization at that point. 19 Q Certainly, it was not your suggestion that it be a 20 membership organization, was it? 21 A I felt that it should take on more of an interactive 22 role. 23 Q And, indeed, Mr. Gordon felt that way, too, and 24 that's why he hired you; is that correct? 25 A Yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3982 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 MR. TRABULUS: May I have the binder that has 2 Exhibit 243 in it?
3 MR. SCHOER: Your Honor, may we take a break
4 now? I have to go to the bathroom.
5 THE COURT: Members of the jury, we will take a
6 ten-minute recess
now, please do not discuss the case, and
7 please recess yourselves.
8 (Whereupon, at this time the jury leaves the
9 courtroom.) 10 11 (Whereupon, a recess is taken.) 12 13 (Whereupon, the jury at this time entered the 14 courtroom.) 15 THE COURT: Please be seated, members of the 16 jury. 17 You may proceed, Mr. Trabulus. 18 MR. TRABULUS: Thank you. 19 Q Before we get back to what I was asking you about, 20 let me ask you, was there ever a time that Maria Gaspar 21 told you that you were being listed as having attended a 22 meeting that didn't exist? 23 A Not that I remember. 24 Q Was there ever a time you were together with Suzanne 25 Konopka and Tracey Colletti and Maria Gaspar came up to
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3983 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 you and said, just so
you know, you were at a certain 2 place on a certain date? Do you recall anything like
3 that?
4 A I don't recall any such conversation.
5 Q When was it that you found -- withdrawn.
6 Mr. White showed you Exhibit 643, a set of logs
7 about the Hummingbird Road and the penthouse apartment.
8 And he asked you about certain items showing your name at
9 non-existing meetings; do you recall that? 10 A Yes. 11 Q When was the first time you saw those logs? 12 A These logs? 13 Q The ones that Mr. White showed you? 14 A I believe it was at the grand jury. 15 Q Okay. 16 When was the first time that you heard that your 17 name appeared in logs for meetings that didn't happen? 18 A I guess it was at the same time. 19 (Counsel confer.) 20 Q Now, I am showing you Exhibit 243 in evidence. And 21 that's one of the solicitation letters you identifi
ed; is 22 that correct. 23 (Handed to the witness.) 24 A Yes. 25 Q And this is one of the solicitation letters sent out
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3984 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 before you came to be with Who's Who Worldwide; is that 2 right?
3 The date is December 10th, 1990?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Is that right?
6 A Yes.
7 Q And that's more than a year before you first came to
8 work at Who's Who Worldwide; is that correct?
9 A Yes. 10 Q And this letter refers to the recipient as a possible 11 member listee; is that correct? 12 A A member, dash, listee. 13 Q Is that correct that even as early as December 10th, 14 1990, as far as you can tell, Who's Who Worldwide was a 15 membership organization? 16 A The terminology is in the letter. 17 Q The -- withdrawn. 18
Are you familiar with the registries ever 19 published? 20 A Yes. 21 Q At the back of the registries there is a section, 22 listees; is that correct? 23 A Yes. 24 Q And the listees are people who were not joined as 25 members; is that correct?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3985 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 A Yes. 2 Q They paid nothing; is that correct?
3 A Yes.
4 Q And they were still listed; is that correct?
5 A Yes.
6 Q There was less information given about them than the
7 people who were members; is that correct?
8 A Yes.
9 Q It still had their name, title and their business 10 address; is that correct? 11 A Yes, I believe so, yes. 12 Q In each book there were perhaps a thousand or so? 13 A Yes. 14 Q These people agreed to be listed, but declined to 15 p
urchase a membership or a directory; is that correct? 16 A I imagine, yeah. 17 Q Is it your understanding -- withdrawn. 18 Did there come a point in time when you traveled 19 to California with Mr. Gordon and with Tara Garboski? 20 A Yes. 21 Q And that was for business purposes, was it not? 22 A Yes, it was. 23 Q And that was for the purposes of obtaining space in 24 California for a business location there? 25 A That's correct.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3986 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 Q And while he was there, Mr. Gordon actually 2 interviewed people as prospective employees there; is that
3 correct?
4 A I believe so, yes.
5 Q Now, in fact, there was a lease that was actually
6 prepared, although not signed for a particular premises;
7 is that correct?
8 A That's correct.
9 Q A
ll right. 10 And several things presented that from happening; 11 is that correct? There was an earthquake; is that 12 correct, Ms. Benjamin? 13 A Yes. 14 Q And Mr. Gordon's son died? 15 A Yes. 16 Q And eventually there was -- down the road there was 17 the government raid; is that correct? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Are you familiar with the company known as Registry 20 Publishing? 21 A Registry Publishing? 22 Q Registry Publishing. One of the companies -- do you 23 recall the name, Registry Publishing? 24 A No. 25 Q Do you recall that there was to be a separate,
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3987 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 although affiliated company that was to run, the 2 California operation?
3 A No.
4 Q Did Mr. Gordon discuss that with you?
5 A No.
6 Q One way or
the other?
7 A No.
8 Q He didn't necessarily discuss with you the corporate
9 structure of the businesses; is that correct? 10 A That's correct. 11 Q All right. 12 Now, you were shown some orders yesterday for 13 mailing lists, orders placed by Who's Who Worldwide; is 14 that correct? 15 A Yes, correct. 16 Q All right. 17 Is it correct that sometimes Who's Who Worldwide 18 would order mailing lists that were to be used for test 19 marketing; is that correct? 20 A Yes, that's correct. 21 Q And when we say test marketing, it is for use for 22 something other than Who's Who Worldwide; is that correct? 23 A I don't know. 24 Q Are you familiar with the company, Williams Who's 25 Who?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3988 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 A Yes. 2 Q Is that anoth
er type of Who's Who company that
3 Mr. Gordon was contemplating starting?
4 A Yes.
5 Q It was to be different than Who's Who Worldwide; is
6 that correct?
7 A Yes.
8 Q The people in it were not to be the same level of
9 achievement; is that correct? 10 A Yes. 11 Q A lower level of achievement? 12 A Yes. 13 Q And it was test marketed? 14 A Yes, it was. 15 Q A mailing was sent out to see whether or not people 16 would be interested in that? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Was that utilizing mailing list that were paid for 19 and obtained by Who's Who Worldwide? 20 A They were obtained by us, yes. 21 Q All right. 22 When you were shown a set of mailing list -- 23 withdrawn. 24 Yesterday Mr. White directed your attention to 25 various mailing lists, or orders that were placed; is that
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, C
P, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3989 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 correct? 2 A Yes, correct.
3 Q And some of them were segmented to be just CEOs or
4 top executives; is that correct?
5 A Yes, correct.
6 Q All right.
7 There was another to I think U.S. News and World
8 Reports; is that correct?
9 A Yes. 10 Q And another was to Working Women; correct? 11 A Yes. 12 Q Do you know whether or not the U.S. News and World 13 Reports one was used for test marketing and other 14 publications? 15 A I don't know offhand. 16 Q The same with Working Women, do you know offhand? 17 A Not offhand. 18 Q Is it fair to say that Who's Who Worldwide mailing 19 lists in general were targeted to high level executives? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Business owners? 22 A Yes, I would say that's correct. 23 Q As far as you know did
Mr. Gordon ever seek to have 24 the word "owner" deleted from any directory? 25 A Owner?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3990 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 Q Owner. 2 A No.
3 Q Not at all? He had no problem with the word "owner"
4 appearing in the directory; is that correct?
5 A I don't think so.
6 Q Yesterday you testified that -- withdrawn.
7 Is it correct that Wendi Springer would from time
8 to time come to you and ask you whether or not certain
9 people were qualified to be members? 10 A Yes, on occasion. 11 Q Is it fair to say as you understand it, she would do 12 that more frequently with Mr. Gordon? 13 A Yes. 14 Q And is it fair to say that Mr. Gordon would 15 frequently say to her, no, they are not qualified? 16 A Yes. 17 Q And those people would not be included? 18 A I
don't know how it was handled at that stage, but I 19 know that he did reject quite a few. 20 Q Now, do you know whether -- withdrawn. 21 I think you testified in a question to 22 Mr. Wallenstein that Mr. Gordon knew everything going on 23 in the country -- in the company; is that correct? 24 A Yes. 25 Q And certainly he made it a point to keep himself
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3991 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 apprised of everything going on in the company as he 2 could?
3 A Yes.
4 Q He couldn't be everywhere at the same time; is that
5 correct?
6 A Yes.
7 Q And he couldn't speak to everyone at the same time,
8 could he?
9 A Of course. 10 Q If Wendi Springer chose not to bring a particular 11 card to Mr. Gordon as to whether that person was 12 qualified, do you know if that card
would get to 13 Mr. Gordon? 14 MR. WHITE: Objection. 15 THE COURT: Overruled. 16 Q You can answer. 17 A In other words, if she didn't go to Mr. Gordon with 18 it and just used her own -- 19 Q Judgment. 20 A Would it ever get to him? 21 Q Would he have occasion to review it himself, do you 22 know? 23 A Not usually. 24 Q Were there other people besides Wendi Springer who 25 also reviewed cards for qualifications?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3992 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 A In reality the, from what I understand the group 2 leaders and salespeople looked at the cards first.
3 Q Were there other people who exercised the function
4 comparable to Wendi Springer's at her level in terms of
5 reviewing cards --
6 A Yes.
7 Q -- at her stage?
8 A Reviewing membership app
lications?
9 Q Yes. 10 A Yes. 11 Q And that is after they had already gone through the 12 sales people; is that correct? 13 A Yes. 14 Q And so, she wasn't the only one who did that; is that 15 correct? 16 A I don't think she was. 17 Q Who were some of the others who did it? 18 A It was other girls in administration. 19 Q Can you tell me some of their names? 20 A Christina, I believe, I don't know if she edited, but 21 I believe Christina, maybe Doreen, most of the girls who 22 did the order entry. 23 Q They would also from time to time ask Mr. Gordon if 24 someone was qualified or not; is that correct? 25 A Once in a while, yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3993 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 Q If he felt they were not qualified, he would say no; 2 is that correct?
3 A That is
correct.
4 Q And if they made a mistake -- withdrawn.
5 Again, if one of those, maybe Wendy or one of the
6 other people decided on their own to let a card go through
7 and not bring it to Mr. Gordon's attention, would he know
8 at that point as to whether that person would be given a
9 membership? 10 A No. 11 Q It would only come to him through one of those 12 people; is that correct? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Mr. Gordon, of course, gave people instructions that 15 he didn't want certain types of people in the Who's Who 16 Worldwide Registry; is that correct? 17 A Yes. 18 Q And people who would -- who had no need for a 19 Registry that would be or might be used for business 20 networking; is that correct? 21 A Yes. 22 Q In other words, he might tell -- were you at sales 23 meetings where he would say he didn't want teachers or 24 th
at type of position, correct? Do you recall that? 25 A Not teachers specifically. But, yes, there were --
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3994 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 Q And would it basically be not that the people he was 2 talking about, that there was something wrong with them,
3 but that there were people that there might not -- people
4 who might not have a need for a business networking
5 directory?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Mr. Gordon would also tell salespeople not to lie; is
8 that correct?
9 A Yes. 10 Q He would tell them if they would lie, they were 11 fired; is that correct? 12 A Yes. 13 Q And people were fired for lying; is that correct? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Walda, W A L D A, Sue, S U E, Mantell, M A N T E L L, 16 was one of them? 17 A I wouldn't know the reason for her termination, but I
18 know he was adamant about people, you know, sticking with 19 their pitch. 20 Q He would tell them that they had to stick with the 21 pitch, or to the sales presentation which he had approved; 22 is that correct? 23 A Yes. 24 Q And he would sometimes say that that was just like 25 IBM which did the same kind of thing with its salespeople,
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3995 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 right? Do you recall that? 2 A Yeah.
3 Q Do you recall hearing him say that the people at IBM
4 wanted to make sure that their salespeople at the same
5 time they were selling a computer, weren't promising to
6 deliver a Cadillac along with it? Would he say that?
7 A Yes.
8 Q He wanted to make sure that the sales people didn't
9 say something that would be untrue; is that correct? 10 A Yes. 11
Q Now, you testified that there was a time that you 12 heard Mr. Gordon telling Wendi Springer that the words 13 "assistant" and "associate" would be dropped from titles? 14 A In some cases, yes. 15 Q Now, if I were to tell you that Wendi Springer said, 16 not that "associate" was to be dropped, but "assistant" to 17 be changed to "associate", would that -- 18 MR. WHITE: Objection. 19 THE COURT: I didn't hear the end of the 20 questions. Would you want to repeat that, please. 21 MR. TRABULUS: Yes. 22 Q Would your testimony change on that if I were to tell 23 you that Wendi Springer testified that the change was from 24 "assistant" to "associate" as opposed to dropping 25 "associate"?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3996 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 MR. WHITE: Objection. 2 THE COURT: What ground?
3 MR. W
HITE: It is not proper for one witness to
4 ask about the accuracy of another witness' testimony.
5 THE COURT: It is an interesting question. I
6 heard that from time to time. Generally I will agree with
7 you. I will sustain the objection. Not always, but
8 generally. I can think of some occasions where that could
9 be used, but not now. 10 Q As you sit here today, are you certain that what you 11 heard was that assistant and associate were both to be 12 dropped, as opposed to assistant being changed to 13 associate? 14 A I am certain of the one instance where it was done in 15 my presence. 16 Q In one instance? 17 A Yes. 18 Q And was that for consistency, so that -- 19 A I don't know the reason at that point. 20 Q Were there instances where attorneys were listed as 21 assistant and changed to associates? Were you aware of 22 that?
23 A Attorneys? 24 Q Yes. 25 A No, I am not aware of that.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3997 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 Q All right. 2 Certainly, there was no wholesale change through
3 the directory in which all references to assistant or
4 associates were deleted, were there?
5 A No.
6 Q And there are many listings for people as either
7 assistants or associates; is that correct?
8 A If it is pertinent to their title, I would think so.
9 Q The annual budget for Tribute Magazine was 10 approximately $60,000? 11 A There wasn't an established budget per se, but it was 12 an expensive magazine to produce. 13 Q Leaving aside the issue as to whether there was a 14 budget for it, is it fair to say that it cost about 15 60,000 -- excuse me, $600,000 a year to produce it? 16 A I am not sure of ex
actly the figures that it cost to 17 produce right now. 18 Q All right. 19 Yesterday you testified that Tribute was your 20 idea. 21 A Yes. 22 Q Is it your testimony that you simply suggested to 23 Mr. Gordon that there be a glossy magazine that would cost 24 something along the nature of an expensive project, and he 25 simply agreed to it like that?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3998 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 A No, no. 2 Q Is it not a fact that he had been thinking for a long
3 time about a publication for members?
4 A I can't -- I can't testify as to what he was
5 thinking.
6 Q Is it also -- are you aware that at the time you were
7 hired Who's Who Worldwide had -- was just going into a
8 much greater point of profitability?
9 A The company seemed to be growing tremendously at that
10 point. 11 Q Are you aware that it is income in the years '90 and 12 '91, was considerably less than the year '92? 13 A I have no knowledge of that. 14 Q Are you aware that one of the reasons that you were 15 hired was to provide benefits for members was because at 16 the point that you were hired Who's Who Worldwide was now 17 doing well enough to expand the benefits that were being 18 offered? 19 A I don't know. 20 Q But you certainly were hired to provide benefits to 21 members; is that correct? 22 A Yes. To help with the marketing of the company. 23 Q At the time that you stopped working for Who's Who 24 Worldwide, at the time of the raid, were there other 25 benefits for members that were in the works?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3999 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 A At that point, yes. 2 Q C
an you tell the jury what some of those other
3 benefits were?
4 A I don't remember offhand, but I know I was working on
5 a few other projects.
6 Q Was one of the projects health insurance?
7 A Well, we had inquired about health insurance, yes.
8 Q The problem is that there were different state
9 regulations? 10 A That's correct. 11 Q And something that you wanted to make available to 12 members? 13 A Yes. 14 Q And you were going to do it if you could get over the 15 regulatory problems? 16 A That's correct. 17 Q Were there different issues of Tribute being planned 18 at the time of the raid? 19 A Yes. We were right at the closing of an issue. 20 Q And that one never came out; is that correct? 21 A Yes. 22 Q There were other benefits besides health insurance 23 that was in the works being contemplated for the members;
24 is that correct? 25 A Yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4000 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 Q Now, you testified yesterday about a conversation 2 that you had with Mr. Gordon concerning the use of the
3 word nomination; do you recall that?
4 A Yes.
5 Q And specifically you testified they took out a
6 dictionary and he told you that nomination means selected
7 or chosen; is that correct?
8 A Yes.
9 Q All right. 10 He was trying to convince you that he was right; 11 is that correct? 12 A Yes. 13 Q And he didn't tell you that he thought that he was 14 wrong in this, did he? 15 A No. 16 Q He believed, as far as you could tell, that the use 17 of "nomination" in the solicitation letters was 18 appropriate? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Is that correct? 21 A Yes.
22 Q All right. 23 Did there come a point in time that he showed you 24 a letter which used the word "nomination" as to him, that 25 had been received from Who's Who in America?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4001 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 A Yes. 2 Q I will show you Defendant's Exhibit Z for
3 Identification.
4 (Handed to the witness.)
5 Q Is that the letter?
6 A Yes.
7 Q He showed that to you?
8 A Uh-huh.
9 THE COURT: Is that yes? 10 THE WITNESS: Yes. I am sorry. 11 Q In the conversations you had with him concerning the 12 use of the word nomination, did he tell you that he had 13 heard testimony in the lawsuit involving Who's Who 14 Worldwide and Reed Elsevir Company concerning Marqui's' 15 use of "nomination"? 16 A I don't recall that conversation. 17 Q Do you recall hi
m telling you that he learned -- 18 withdrawn. 19 The letter in front of you is the one that 20 nominated Mr. Gordon for -- 21 MR. WHITE: Objection. 22 Is Mr. Trabulus going to summarize it for us 23 before it is in evidence? 24 MR. TRABULUS: I will offer it in evidence. 25 THE COURT: Any objection?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4002 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 MR. WHITE: Yes, I object. 2 THE COURT: Can I see it, please?
3 (Handed to the Court.)
4 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, may I ask a few more
5 questions?
6 THE COURT: Yes.
7 Q Did Mr. Gordon tell you that he had learned in the
8 course of that lawsuit that Marquis Who's Who used mailing
9 lists? 10 A Yes. 11 Q And did he tell you that Marquis Who's Who utilized 12 letters which said that people had been nominated?
13 A I believe he did mention that. 14 Q And did he mention -- did he show you this letter -- 15 well, the judge has it in front of him -- and give that as 16 an example of a letter that Marquis Who's Who used? 17 A He showed me letters that there were a number of 18 people doing mailings. 19 Q And did he tell you that Marquis Who's Who itself 20 used the word "nomination" in describing the process by 21 which somebody was selected, even though that person might 22 have been selected from a mailing list? 23 A Yes. 24 Q And did he tell you that that was one of his reasons 25 for saying it was okay to do that?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4003 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 A Yes. 2 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, I would offer that.
3 THE COURT: I assume you are not offering it for
4 the truth?
5 MR. TRABULUS:
No. It goes to Mr. Gordon's state
6 of mind.
7 THE COURT: Any objection?
8 MR. WHITE: Yes, your Honor, I do have an
9 objection. 10 THE COURT: All right. Come up. 11 12 (Whereupon, at this time the following took place 13 at the sidebar.) 14 MR. WHITE: My objection is this, your Honor: If 15 it is not offered for the truth of it and Mr. Gordon's 16 state of mind, I understand that. He is free to elicit 17 evidence bearing on his state of mind. 18 I don't mean to reargue what your Honor has 19 already decided, but the government is ending up here 20 fighting with one hand tied behind its back, because 21 Mr. Trabulus is trying to elicit that Mr. Gordon found out 22 things from the other litigation, found out this stuff. 23 It is a one-way door swinging to his side. He is trying 24 to bring out all these things to show it is okay to show
25 people were nominated although it came from mailing lists,
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4004 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 when we have the most definitive pronouncement of all, 2 Judge Jordan's decision saying it is not. It seems to be
3 completely distorting the process. They are only hearing
4 one side of the story about what Mr. Gordon heard.
5 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, I most respectfully
6 disagree. Mr. Gordon received that, or indicated he
7 received that in 1989. The issues involved in Magistrate
8 Jordan's decision is far more complicated as to the simple
9 issue as to whether one can say "nomination" with respect 10 to the mailing lists. I don't believe it is a distortion. 11 THE COURT: I don't think it is a distortion at 12 all. I don't believe the government has one hand tied 13 behind their back. 14 The gove
rnment chose to bring this elaborate and 15 expensive prosecution. The government says that these 16 people committed a criminal fraud by saying that people 17 were nominated. That's the guts of the case. That's it. 18 Now, you might have a little Vietnam trip throne 19 in here and there. I am not talking about the other 20 charges, the obstruction, the tax counts. I am talking 21 about the mail fraud. This is it. 22 I could not preclude this from going in. This is 23 evidence of state of mind, that he saw something that 24 another company told him, told him he was nominated when 25 in fact he was not nominated, as you, the government,
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4005 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 thinks he should have been nominated. 2 In other words, this is very important evidence.
3 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, again, my position
all
4 along has not been that the defense should be precluded
5 from bringing that in. Again, I don't mean to reargue
6 things. But there is certainly a way that we can simplify
7 Magistrate Jordan's decision to explain to the jury that
8 at some point Mr. Gordon was told, without getting into
9 the legalese, that the company was ordered to do this. 10 THE COURT: Only one problem. That's a civil 11 copyright case. The standards are different. The points 12 of law are different. Everything is different. 13 Not only that, but it is unduly prejudicial in my 14 opinion, because the jury might think because one judge 15 already found this, how could they not do it? So that's 16 why I kept it out. 17 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, can I at least propose 18 this, and maybe -- I don't know if your Honor has an open 19 mind on this or not -- 20 THE COURT: I have an open mind
on everything. 21 MR. WHITE: Okay. 22 THE COURT: Including this expensive criminal 23 prosecution. 24 MR. WHITE: What I was going to suggest, and if 25 the defendants again -- I am not disputing their right --
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4006 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 continues to put in evidence like this, is there at least 2 a possibility that we can fashion some sort of instruction
3 to the jury to simplify it --
4 THE COURT: Simplify what?
5 MR. WHITE: The gist of Magistrate Jordan's
6 decision.
7 THE COURT: I am always open to suggestions.
8 MR. WHITE: Even though if they don't tell them
9 it is coming from a federal judge. 10 THE COURT: I am open to suggestions, until the 11 jury comes in with a verdict, and until they are 12 discharged after the verdict. Until then I am open to 13
suggestions, and at any time. 14 MR. WHITE: I will try to come up with a creative 15 one then. 16 THE COURT: I will overrule the objection on this 17 one. And I will instruct the jury as to what this means, 18 if you want me to. It is not for the truth of what is in 19 here, obviously. 20 MR. WHITE: Yes, I would like you to do that, 21 your Honor. 22 THE COURT: All right. 23 MR. TRABULUS: May I take that? 24 THE COURT: I will use it for a minute. 25
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4007 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 (Whereupon, at this time the following takes 2 place in open court.)
3 THE COURT: Members of the jury, again, I am
4 going to give you a limiting instruction as to this
5 exhibit, Defendant's Exhibit Z for Zebra.
6 By this time you heard me say that some documents
7 are not o
ffered for the truth.
8 Now, what does that mean? It is a very
9 sophisticated doctrine. As a matter of fact, after this 10 case you all ought to start going to law school. 11 It means that whatever is said in here, I don't 12 know, not offered for the truth of what it says. It 13 doesn't matter. 14 It is only offered for the effects, if anything, 15 on the defendant Bruce Gordon who received it, about his 16 state of mind. What would he think? What impressions 17 would he have when he receives this, and that's all. It 18 is not that it is true. It doesn't matter. 19 Defendant's Exhibit Z, for Zebra, in evidence. 20 (Defendant's Exhibit Z received in evidence.) 21 (Handed to the witness.) 22 Q Ms. Benjamin, take a look at Exhibit Z, for Zebra. 23 In the second paragraph it lists the sources, 24 some sources of names for potential biographies; is that
25 correct?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4008 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 A Yes. 2 Q I am going to read it.
3 Names of potential biographies for our reference
4 volume are gathered by an in-house research department
5 from many sources, magazines, newspapers, professional and
6 scholarly journals, and many other publications,
7 professional organization memberships, as well as through
8 nominations by our advisory and nominated boards, and our
9 established biographies. 10 Now, that is everything that the letter says 11 concerning the sources of names; is that correct? 12 A Yes. 13 Q It does not reveal that Marquis utilizes mailing 14 lists, does it? 15 A No. 16 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, I would like to 17 publish that to the jury. 18 THE COURT: Yes. 19 (Whereupon, the exhibit/exhi
bits were published 20 to the jury.) 21 MR. TRABULUS: While it is being circulated, if I 22 may, I will read the beginning of the letter. 23 December 20th, 1989. Bruce Gordon, UVX 24 Computers, 99 Seaview Boulevard, Port Washington, New York 25 11050.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4009 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 Dear Mr. Gordon. 2 You have been nominated as a biographical
3 candidate for the forthcoming 23rd edition of Who's Who in
4 the East.
5 Q Did Mr. Gordon also in discussing this letter tell
6 you that a couple of weeks before he received it he had
7 himself ordered a publication from Marquis?
8 A I don't remember that.
9 Q Now, you had testified to a conversation with Liz 10 Sautter where she mentioned the possibility to you that 11 you might need to use the penthouse; is that correct?
12 A Yes. 13 Q And had you previously discussed with Ms. Sautter or 14 anyone else there the circumstances under which you or 15 other people at Who's Who Worldwide might be able to use 16 the penthouse? 17 A No. It was not a discussion. 18 Q When she said this to you, did she indicate to you 19 that it might be for a member function that you might have 20 been working on? 21 A She didn't indicate it at that time. But there 22 had -- we did have cocktail parties there. 23 Q And you yourself had organized those cocktail 24 parties? 25 A That's correct.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4010 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 Q You had the responsibility for doing that? 2 A Yes.
3 Q Is that correct?
4 A Yes.
5 Q And these were cocktail parties for members; is that
6 correct?
7 A Yes.
8 Q For networking?
9 A Yes. 10 Q And do you recall approximately when the first one 11 was? 12 A It was in '94. I am very poor with dates, I 13 apologize. 14 Q And the second time was in the wintertime because of 15 bad weather? 16 A Right. 17 Q And the second one was not very well as attended as 18 the first? 19 A Very bad weather. 20 Q Do you recall how many members came to the first one? 21 A I would say about 50. 22 Q To the second one with the bad weather? 23 A About half that amount. 24 Q Now, are you familiar with something known as the 25 Hyde Agency?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4011 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 A Yes. 2 Q They are located in San Francisco?
3 A Uh-huh.
4 THE COURT: Yes?
5 THE WITNESS: Yes. I am sorry.
6 Q Were the
y involved in a networking project with
7 members that you were trying to set up?
8 A Yes. They were trying to become involved to solicit
9 membership from China, or Chinese members, I should say. 10 Q And was the Hyde Agency involved in arranging for 11 Chinese business people to visit the United States on 12 business visas to have business deals? 13 A That was my understanding. 14 Q And were you trying -- withdrawn. 15 Did Mr. Gordon ask you the try to arrange for 16 those people either to become members or meet members? 17 A Yes. 18 Q And that was part of what was being done by way of a 19 service to existing members of Who's Who to facilitate 20 possible trade with this emerging new market? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Is that correct? 23 I take it the Hyde Agency wasn't very effective 24 in doing what it was doing? 25 A No, not at all.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4012 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 Q But certainly, Who's Who Worldwide was trying 2 sincerely to do that?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Were you aware that thousands of CD-ROMs were sold to
5 members?
6 A I don't know the quantity, but I know a lot.
7 Q Are you aware of any members complaining after they
8 received the CD-ROM that it was not good?
9 A I wasn't aware of it. 10 Q Were you aware that Who's Who Worldwide and Sterling 11 sometimes gave refunds to customers? 12 A Yes. 13 Q To members? 14 What was your understanding as to what the 15 refunds policy was? 16 A If a member didn't want membership or was unhappy for 17 any reason, a refund was issued pretty immediately. 18 Q That was the general policy; is that correct? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Is that correct? 21 A Yes.
22 Q And are you aware in some instances there might have 23 been a slip up and it wasn't done? 24 A No. 25 Q And as far as you were aware that was what was
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4013 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 supposed to be done; is that correct? 2 A Yes.
3 Q Mr. Gordon himself didn't sit on top of every staff
4 members who was involved in effecting the rep funds, did
5 he?
6 A No.
7 Q If a mistake was made, you wouldn't regard that as
8 Mr. Gordon's, would you?
9 A No. 10 Q Are you familiar with the term "buyer's remorse"? 11 A Yes. 12 Q And that would be when someone decided to buy 13 something or join something, and then changed their mind? 14 A Yes. 15 Q In the case of Who's Who Worldwide was there -- do 16 you know what the percentage of buyer's remorse, peopl
e 17 who would join and right away change their mind was? 18 MR. WHITE: Objection. 19 THE COURT: Overruled. 20 A I wouldn't really have knowledge of the amount, but I 21 wouldn't think it was too many. 22 Q Was there a certain percentage of -- withdrawn. 23 Do you know what the term charge backs is, in 24 connection with credit cards? 25 A Yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4014 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 Q If somebody purchased a membership and were charged 2 for the membership through a credit card, and then changed
3 their mind, and they would be given a refund, there would
4 be a charge back?
5 A Right.
6 Q And would it -- would the number of somewhere in the
7 range of six or eight percent be the amount of charge
8 backs that you were aware of?
9 A I wouldn't know that, I am sorry.
10 Q You said you didn't know it was -- you didn't think 11 it was too much, right? 12 A I didn't think it was a high percentage. 13 Q Was it your understanding that when the penthouse was 14 first leased, it was to be used for various business 15 purposes? 16 A Yes. 17 MR. WHITE: Objection. If we can have a 18 foundation for what her understanding is before she can 19 answer? 20 THE COURT: Overruled. 21 Q Who told you that? 22 A Mr. Gordon. 23 Q And what were some of the things that he explained 24 that he was planning to do with it? 25 A He wanted the cocktail parties, and the social
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4015 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 mixers, that was important. And making it available to 2 members, especially with our Russian people.
3 Q Did you yourself ever speak to anybo
dy, either the
4 Russian people themselves, or representatives of the
5 Russian people to inform them that Russian members would
6 stay at the penthouse if they wished to?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Who did you speak to specifically?
9 A Dimitri, and I can't remember -- 10 Q Michael? 11 A Michael. 12 Q Who were Dimitri and Michael? 13 A They were the representative -- they were from 14 Itar-Tass, the Russian News Agency, and they represented 15 us in the Russian community. 16 Q Through them did Who's Who Worldwide actually have an 17 office in Moscow? 18 A That they manned, yes. 19 Q And you told Dimitri and Michael that Russian members 20 could, if they wanted to, stay in the penthouse when they 21 came to the United States? 22 A It was made available for them, yes. 23 Q Do you know if that actually happened? 24 A I don't know if it did
, but I doubt it. 25 Q If it didn't it wasn't because Who's Who Worldwide
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4016 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 didn't offer, correct? 2 A Correct.
3 MR. TRABULUS: Bear with me a moment, your
4 Honor.
5 THE COURT: Yes.
6 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the
7 proceedings.)
8 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, if I may review my
9 notes for a moment? 10 THE COURT: Yes. 11 MR. TRABULUS: Thank you. 12 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the 13 proceedings.) 14 Q Mr. Gordon also told you he had plans to open up 15 offices in Paris and London? Do you recall that? 16 A Yes, that he did want to open up in Europe, yes. 17 Q Now, in terms of Mr. Gordon's staying at the 18 penthouse, I think you testified that there were times 19 when you were to
ld he could be reached there? 20 A Uh-huh. 21 Q When he was working in the city? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Is that right? 24 A Yes. 25 Q All right.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4017 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 Did he spend -- withdrawn. 2 You spent most of your time at the Long Island
3 location; is that correct? Lake Success?
4 A It depends on the time of the month mostly. We -- if
5 we were working on a deadline of an issue, I would be back
6 and forth.
7 Q On the Tribute Magazine?
8 A Yes.
9 Q And that's -- would Mr. Gordon be working with you on 10 the deadline issue as well? 11 A Sometimes, yes, and sometimes no. 12 Q Is that correct that the penthouse was leased in the 13 Spring of 1994? 14 A I don't know when the actual lease was signed. 15 Q Is it correct that there w
ere periods after that when 16 Mr. Gordon would be only at the Sterling location in the 17 City maybe once every two weeks or once a week? 18 A I don't recall how often, but, you know, he would 19 have to go back and forth. 20 Q Were there days he would go back and forth, leaving 21 to Long Island, going to the City and coming back to Long 22 Island? 23 A Yes. 24 Q And it is not -- one can't assume that everyday he 25 was in the City at Sterling, he was staying over in
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4018 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 Manhattan, can we? 2 A I wouldn't know that.
3 Q In fact, as you sit there, you yourself don't know
4 how many nights, if any, Mr. Gordon actually spent at the
5 penthouse, do you?
6 A No.
7 MR. TRABULUS: I have no further questions.
8
9 CROSS-EXAMINATION
10 BY MR. SCHOER: 11 Q Good afternoon. 12 A Hi. 13 Q Ms. Benjamin, you didn't have any financial interest 14 in this business, did you? 15 A Other than my paycheck, no. 16 Q Other than your paycheck, right? 17 A Right. 18 Q And you didn't do anything in the course of your 19 employment to deceive people, did you? 20 A No. 21 Q You didn't believe that this business didn't provide 22 a product to the members, did you? 23 A No. 24 Q You had no ownership interest in the business, right? 25 A None.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4019 Benjamin-cross/Schoer
1 Q Is that right? 2 A Yes.
3 Q And so, you had no reason to deceive anyone; isn't
4 that correct?
5 A Correct.
6 Q Now, you were the person who first started these
7 Tribute Magazines; isn't that corr
ect?
8 A Yes.
9 MR. SCHOER: Do we have that first Tribute? 10 MR. TRABULUS: Yes, we do. 11 (Mr. Schoer confers with Mr. Trabulus.) 12 Q I will show you what is marked as Defendant's 13 Gordon-H for Identification.<